Thread: Question about sacd players

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Post by FullRangeMan July 7, 2013 (31 of 72)
Kal Rubinson said:

Those arguments are proof of nothing but are attempts to justify a preference. My preference is different from yours and is based on my listening experience.

.........but what the hell is "small music detail DC energy?"

Obviously it is low amplitude DC tension coming from the amp to the crossover.

Post by Kal Rubinson July 7, 2013 (32 of 72)
FullRangeMan said:

Obviously it is low amplitude DC tension coming from the amp to the crossover.

If so, it is an amplifier problem.

Post by FullRangeMan July 7, 2013 (33 of 72)
Kal Rubinson said:

If so, it is an amplifier problem.

Do you mean say the amp output is AC?

Post by Kal Rubinson July 8, 2013 (34 of 72)
FullRangeMan said:

Do you mean say the amp output is AC?

It should be.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 July 8, 2013 (35 of 72)
FullRangeMan said:

QUOTE: but the imaging is simply wrong vs. the mastered final mix on the disk and bass performance a huge compromise, both issues compared to properly set up speakers in a well behaved room, most notably a quality Mch setup.

The bass will, as it is always going to be deficient through headphones. The image on the recording is often not real in the first place, so distorting it through the phones may not be a big deal.
= = =
Seems you are talking about soundstage, Iam refering to image of the instrumnents.
Small soundstage is the reason headphones are yet less used by audiophiles than floorstanding speakers.



As is well known here I like fullrange drivers due the best pin point image avaliable, two or more ways speakers are a serious compromisse in quality, not to mention the extra money.

If the only thing headphones did was to shrink the soundstage and put it between your ears, life with 'phones might not be so bad, though still intolerable to me. But, unfortunately, there is much more to it than that. Recordings are recorded, mixed and mastered - with speakers in the recording control room, not headphones, by the way - for a certain sound involving crosstalk between the ears, since each ear hears both channels at all times, at different levels, of course. If at a live concert, it is the same thing: both ears hear both sides of the stage at different levels with slightly different arrival times. Headphones remove that and play everything into one ear or the other. Via headphones, the recorded sound is not recorded or mixed for what we would hear live, unless the recording was a dummy head binaural one. Try finding those anywhere.

You may like it, but headphones no longer sound like the original recording or the original live music. Space is distorted. You may like that, too, but as Kal says, it is simple preference. Hate to gang up on you, but simple personal preference by one individual is not really relevant to anyone else. Why should everyone like what you like, especially if it involves a fairly gross distortion of reality from the get go. You want to talk about serious compromises? Headphones are just that.

Meanwhile, poor confuzzled is more confuzzled than ever before. My advice to him is to avoid headphones if he wants to have a chance of hearing something that sounds more like live sound as recorded on almost all recordings.

And, by the way, amps are designed specifically to block DC at their outputs. If they were not, speakers and headphones would be blowing up all over the place, and amp manufacturers would be being sued for negligent, incompetent design.

Post by FullRangeMan July 8, 2013 (36 of 72)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

If the only thing headphones did was to shrink the soundstage and put it between your ears, life with 'phones might not be so bad, though still intolerable to me. But, unfortunately, there is much more to it than that. Recordings are recorded, mixed and mastered - with speakers in the recording control room, not headphones, by the way - for a certain sound involving crosstalk between the ears, since each ear hears both channels at all times, at different levels, of course. If at a live concert, it is the same thing: both ears hear both sides of the stage at different levels with slightly different arrival times. Headphones remove that and play everything into one ear or the other. Via headphones, the recorded sound is not recorded or mixed for what we would hear live, unless the recording was a dummy head binaural one. Try finding those anywhere.

Quote: but simple personal preference by one individual is not really relevant to anyone else.
= = =
You are saying my preference is headphone, but I said earlier I dont listen the HD800 yet so I cant recommend it.
As a art, music and audio is all 100% personal preference, in fact a 5.1 speaker set and these receivers are most revolting to me too, but some like it.

I have suggested the hd800 as a minimalist option to get out of a complex 5.1 ht Receiver system, with a listening test before the purchase.
So if the HD800 cant substitute a floorstander speaker, no one headphone can do it.
As everyone that used a phones know a good headphone always play more detail than a regular speaker.

===
Quote: It should be.
====
Amps outputs are polarized why it is DC. AC dont have polarity, it has a positive half cycle and a negative half cycle, probably it is a joke.

Post by Confuzzled July 8, 2013 (37 of 72)
Could you in theory, connect an sacd player to this sort of system. I know it's not high end, but as a starting point?

http://www.denon.co.uk/UK/Product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=Systems&SubId=MiniMicro&ProductId=RCDM39DAB

Post by FullRangeMan July 8, 2013 (38 of 72)
Confuzzled said:

Could you in theory, connect an sacd player to this sort of system. I know it's not high end, but as a starting point?

http://www.denon.co.uk/UK/Product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=Systems&SubId=MiniMicro&ProductId=RCDM39DAB

CD/DVD/SACD etc player may be pluged in the analogue RCA inputs or in the Digital inputs(that seems a Toshlink) at far left in this image.

Post by Iain July 8, 2013 (39 of 72)
Confuzzled said:

Could you in theory, connect an sacd player to this sort of system. I know it's not high end, but as a starting point?

http://www.denon.co.uk/UK/Product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=Systems&SubId=MiniMicro&ProductId=RCDM39DAB

You could do that, but what's the point?

You need high speed HDMI for all it's benefits.

Contact Richer Sounds for this:
http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/denon/avr1513/deno-avr1513

Good starting point. Hurry though as they might all be gone soon. Last years model.

EDIT:
http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?Catid=HomeTheatre&SubId=AVReceivers&ProductId=AVR1513

Post by gumby July 8, 2013 (40 of 72)
Confuzzled said:

Could you in theory, connect an sacd player to this sort of system. I know it's not high end, but as a starting point?

http://www.denon.co.uk/UK/Product/pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=Systems&SubId=MiniMicro&ProductId=RCDM39DAB

Confuzzled,

Without having some idea of what your ultimate vision would be and more importamtly, what you might be willing to spend over a period of 3 to 5 years, it is hard to say if this is a good "starting point."

What kind of music do you listen to? Do you go to live concerts? Are you trying to approximate live music in a room in your house? Do you want to take advantage of SACD's multichannel layer? What is your budget?

You pick the speakers to fit the room, get the best source/ preamp you can afford and the pick amplifiers to match the speakers. Smaller rooms don't need, and cannot hold, the sound that can be produced by the larger speakers.

If you have a budget, you have some hard decisions. The nice thing about the OPPO is it as future proof a source component as there is and good quality. If you have that and you can find two used speakers and a used 2 channel amplifier you are in business. You can start thinking about better amplifiers, better speakers and/or multichannel amplifiers and more/better speakers.

For me, this Denon would not be a good starting point. I would wait, save the money you would spend on this and start putting aside some regular savings to use to fund a plan that you have taken some time to think about.

I think that if you enjoy live music at all you will end up replacing this box in short order with all of the above. I say this because it comes with 2 channels of 30 watt amplification. This not bad, but there is no information about the frequency range covered by the speakers it was designed to work with or their impedeance. This is not a good sign.

It sort of looks like a good ending point for someone who needs to step up from listening to music through ear buds or on very poor computer speakers, but has no real aspiration to reproduce music in a lifelike manner and I have concerns that it would not really reveal the benefits of a properly recorded SACD.

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