Thread: An indication the Bis Sibelius cycle will continue...

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Post by wehecht July 2, 2014 (51 of 104)
Disbeliever said:

So if you recorded at say 3.5 db higher level , Fitzcalrado says you record this amount lower than other labels , perhaps this might solve the problem that both Doktor Brahms and I concur with. It is a total red Herring to mention Walkman & that other labels compress the sound. I doubt if any posters on this Forum play SACD,s in their cars.

Actually that's not what Robert or Carl said at all. Let's try again: BIS' recording technique is simple, the recording level is set at 0db for the highest peak dynamic in the particular piece of music, and everything else falls from there without any compression making the dynamic range exactly what the performers, not the producers or engineers, decide upon. The same approach is used by BIS across the board so that the overall perceived volume of a piece of Mozart's chamber music will be higher than an Aho symphony because the dynamic compression is built into the music itself.

Listening to a recording of a large symphonic piece in a domestic environment presents challenges when the dynamic range is uncompressed. Is the environment quiet enough to hear the moments of pppp above the ambient noise? If not raising the volume setting will allow you to hear the quiet bits and may leave you grabbing the remote control when the ffff part comes along, but that's the result of the dynamic range inherent in the music as performed not the result of the recording except insofar as it faithfully captures what the composer and performers intended. For many of us aging ears may also play a part in needing to boost the pppp parts, and there's also the matter of whether our gear can deal with the peaks cleanly. I could go on, but rather than blaming BIS for poor recording technique you ought to be blaming Sibelius for writing his music the way he did, or Maestro Vanska for performing it the way he did. Whether other labels compress the dynamics to make domestic listening more comfortable is beyond my knowledge, but I understand and applaud BIS' approach even if it does render their symphonic recordings virtually unusable in my car (is that the real reason Robert has pursued a Tesla?).

Post by samayoeruorandajin July 2, 2014 (52 of 104)
Disbeliever,

You have a reading and comprehension problem, clearly.

Post by armenian July 2, 2014 (53 of 104)
Have a suggestion for those who do attend live symphonic concerts regularly but are coming hard on BIS dynamics.

If you have a compact sound level meter take it with you next time you attend a live orchestral concert, you can measure the lows and highs in dB, that out to give you a fairly realistic picture of symphonic musicís inherent dynamic range, this will only work if you are not sitting way out in the back row of the concert hall.

Repeat the same at home with your BIS SACDís, as well as your non BIS well recorded SACDís and decide for yourself who is at fault.

One problem, for the home experiment you will need a very large and efficient speaker system, expensive boutique speakers will not cut it, they sound good but they do compress and choke up when faced with huge dynamics.
If you live in an apartment I can understand why BIS is not for you.

Vahe

Post by civilwartamarin July 2, 2014 (54 of 104)
Disbeliever said:

So Doktor Brahms is also completely wrong, just been playing BIS Sibelius and then a Pentatone disc. Seems to me that BIS are recording considerably lower than the 3.5 dB you say. I am fed up with your insinuations & outrageous attacks on my credibility , so 'Get Knotted'

I attended 33 live concerts this year. 26 with the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra and 7 with the Minnesota Orchestra. I never heard the SPCO play as soft as I hear in BIS SACDs, however I heard the Minnesota Orchestra play that quiet on several occasions, including on March 28th when Vänskä led Sibelius symphonies 1 and 4 in their Grammy Celebration. Thankfully, the patrons in Minneapolis are generally well behaved and the ppp can be appreciated.

I also heard the Minnesota Orchestra play louder in recent months than I ever listen at home. During the conclusion of Bolero and Pictures at an Exhibition.

Post by Disbeliever July 2, 2014 (55 of 104)
armenian said:

Have a suggestion for those who do attend live symphonic concerts regularly but are coming hard on BIS dynamics.

If you have a compact sound level meter take it with you next time you attend a live orchestral concert, you can measure the lows and highs in dB, that out to give you a fairly realistic picture of symphonic musicís inherent dynamic range, this will only work if you are not sitting way out in the back row of the concert hall.

Repeat the same at home with your BIS SACDís, as well as your non BIS well recorded SACDís and decide for yourself who is at fault.

One problem, for the home experiment you will need a very large and efficient speaker system, expensive boutique speakers will not cut it, they sound good but they do compress and choke up when faced with huge dynamics.
If you live in an apartment I can understand why BIS is not for you.

Vahe

I do not live in an apartment , and only experience the problem I & Doktor Brahms complain of with BIS discs. I do not expect or want to replicate the full loud sound of a symphony orchestra heard at Concert Halls in a domestic environment. However I concede the problem with the Sibelius may be with Vanska & not BIS. OTH even Andrew McGregor says the volume on BIS discs must be increased to hear the full dynamic range so for me I do not want any more BIS discs. I am quite content with Channel Classics, Pentatone, 2L, Chandos etc. SACD,s which I play only in mch 5.0. format.

Post by emaidel July 3, 2014 (56 of 104)
Once again, a select few know-it-alls have decided they are somehow better able to determine how to record music than a professional, like Robert/Bissie. Attempting to reason with these sophomoric miscreants is like trying to teach nuclear physics to a 3 year-old: one gets absolutely nowhere. No facts, reasoning or truth is ever considered, as these few folks continue to spew their venom, even though virtually anyone else posting on this thread has done his absolute best to disprove their silly, and frankly downright insulting (especially to Robert) beliefs.

I have been a BIS fan ever since I bought my first BIS SACD about 7 years ago. I like some less than others, but have yet to purchase a downright clunker. I just didn't like the music on "Asrael Symphony," and so I can't fault BIS for that.

I don't live anywhere near Minnesota, but have attended numerous live symphonic concerts elsewhere with huge dynamic ranges. Hearing Mahler's 3rd with the Colorado Symphony, under the direction of Marin Alsop was something that the BIS critics on this thread would have been quite an ear (or brain) opener. There are massive crescendos at a staggeringly loud volume, and then the ethereal posthorn solo in the third movement that, if anyone should even whisper, is all but drowned out.

That is how music sounds REAL. "Bravo" to BIS for trying to do it right.

Post by armenian July 3, 2014 (57 of 104)
Disbeliever said:

I do not expect or want to replicate the full loud sound of a symphony orchestra heard at Concert Halls in a domestic environment.

The only way to increase the volume as some have suggested, in order to hear the quiet passages, is to introduce compression, perhaps a minimal compression is all that is needed to ďdomesticateĒ BIS SACDís.

In a totally uncompressed recording the loudest volumes are set right at the limit and the quiet passages fall at whatever volume that they really are in relation to the maximum volume.

Now, if you do not want to or expect to replicate the full sound of a symphony orchestra in your listening environment that is you call and I can understand the reasons. Speaking for myself I am glad that someone is giving us totally uncompressed recordings despite the difficulty associated with their reproduction in a typical home environment and limitations of most playback systems.

Currently I have more BIS than any other label in my somewhat limited SACD collection.

My only criticism of BIS sound, on the average, is that they are a bit dry for my taste, a little more hall sound would make them perfect. (I do not have MC).

Vahe

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 July 3, 2014 (58 of 104)
Disbeliever said:

...

OTH even Andrew McGregor says the volume on BIS discs must be increased to hear the full dynamic range so for me I do not want any more BIS discs. I am quite content with Channel Classics, Pentatone, 2L, Chandos etc. SACD,s which I play only in mch 5.0. format.

Every discerning listener, not just Andrew McGregor, agrees that most BIS recordings need to be turned up a small amount relative to many other labels for proper dynamics. Your, Doktor Brahms, whoever in the hell he is - he does not show his face here at this site - has not yet discovered this, pure and simple.

By all means, keep your promise and buy no more BIS disks. The world will not end as a result. It might even be a better place.

Elsewhere you have claimed to have had over 50 years of experience in the audio industry. Yet, moronically, even with a remote control in your hand, you will not or cannot bring yourself to make the small volume adjustment. Or, if you do, you claim all kinds of other bad things happen, like too much peak dynamics. That is your prerogative. But, going on and on about it in thread after thread is clearly the result of a very sick, unstable and distorted mind. If this trivial volume adjustment is so difficult and such a burning issue for you, then how can you wonder why your credibility is zero? Unfortunately, too many other rants by you on other topics fully confirm this.

Post by Disbeliever July 3, 2014 (59 of 104)
FITZY : GET KNOTTED you are the one prolonging the issue. If someone makes a post I am entitled to reply to it, I am not starting new Threads ,, how many more times do I have to say that I do not want to have to continually adjust volume levels when listening to BIS discs, Not necessary for me when playing all other labels. This has nothing to do with my credibility, just yours and your repeated insults. You post in Audio Asylum and in Doktor Brahms Thread yet you say who the hell is he. IMO you are nuts/ bonkers or worse . Get Lost ..

Post by Ubertrout July 3, 2014 (60 of 104)
This whole argument is kind of dumb.

Some people don't like the dynamics on BIS recordings - they think they are too great. Other people do like the dynamics on BIS recordings, because they like the wide dynamic range. I think in audiophile circles there's a preference for wide dynamic range, but it's not the only valid view.

I'll admit I usually don't listen to classical in the car because of the dynamic range, but if I really want to listen there's always EQ.

How do we have these vituperative arguments about matters of personal taste?

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