Thread: Sony SCD-C2000ES Can't read SACD layer on Hybrid SACD

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Post by sylvian July 7, 2014 (11 of 40)
On the contrary Lunna: CD-layer has more "readable" pits than SA-CD layer(s). Thus you need more exact reading mechanism to transfer data to your DAC when playing SA-CD. CD layer requires also perfect reading but this time the more imortant part plays your DAC in order to recreate analogue signal from low resolution data.

So when it comes to play SA-CD layer (streo or multichannel): the lens is required to be perfactly focused on reading (then the word-clock accuracy is also very welcomed) and the DAC (preferably DSD capable) is asked to transfer exact digital to analogue from the presented data.

When you play CD: the lens and also low jitter has minor role in definite sound. The DAC doing the interpolation of the presented data in order to recreate the analogue, but even with best audio equipment it is only approximation to original recording.

THIS IS WHY RBCD SOUND THE MORE HARSH AND STRIDENT THE LOWER-END DAC YOU ARE USING. BUT EVEN WITH TOP-NOTCH DAC YOU CAN ONLY ARTIFICIALLY RECREATE WHAT MIGHT NOT BE PRESENT DURING THE RECORDING SESSION.


EMM Labs together with dCS are doing their best to fight unwelcomed effects (jitter/unperfect reading/weak circuitry/power biased performance/etc...).

Assembly line products are made "around" the existing standards and we cannot expect much of them, can we?

Post by alexandru27 July 7, 2014 (12 of 40)
@sylvian: Thanks, that answers my problem too. Most of the times if I put a SACD on my Pioneer BDP 150 I get mostly stereo sound, even though I make sure it reads the multichannel layer and the receiver states 'multichannel' when playing it. Actually, I do get sound in the surround speakers, but it's softer and the result upon listening is mostly stereo - as if the sound comes only from front speakers.

With bluray disks I do have normal 5.1 sound, so it's not an issue with the BDP. I did check with several SACDs and the problem is still there. At the moment I don't have a single layer multichannel SACD, but I do have multichannel files originated from SACDs, which all play/sound allright on my system.

So, if I get it right, the cheaper BDPs aren't able to thoroughly get to that multichannel layer under the RBCD layer on hybrid/double layer SACDs - with the result of a thinner/softer sound on the surround speakers, and therefore a final impression of basically stereo sound on the listener? Does this mean that I'll either have to buy a more expensive BDP, or a dedicated SACD player in order to have full access to the multichannel layer and enjoy surround sound as it's supposed to be?

Post by Iain July 7, 2014 (13 of 40)
alexandru27 said:

... Actually, I do get sound in the surround speakers, but it's softer and the result upon listening is mostly stereo - as if the sound comes only from front speakers.

With bluray disks I do have normal 5.1 sound, so it's not an issue with the BDP. I did check with several SACDs and the problem is still there. At the moment I don't have a single layer multichannel SACD, but I do have multichannel files originated from SACDs, which all play/sound allright on my system.

So, if I get it right, the cheaper BDPs aren't able to thoroughly get to that multichannel layer under the RBCD layer on hybrid/double layer SACDs - with the result of a thinner/softer sound on the surround speakers, and therefore a final impression of basically stereo sound on the listener? Does this mean that I'll either have to buy a more expensive BDP, or a dedicated SACD player in order to have full access to the multichannel layer and enjoy surround sound as it's supposed to be?

Obviously, your system distance and speaker level calibration settings are correct, otherwise BD would sound the same as multi-channel SA-CD.

What I've consistently noted with SA-CD, is that most classical multi-channel disks leave a lot to be desired WRT activity of rear channels. Only exception to this are most Channel Classic titles which seem to be recorded and mastered correctly. I get a lot of rear channel activity with CC titles. Generally though, most classical titles are pathetic of this.

Try playing:
Pink Floyd: Wish You Were Here or,

Elton John: Honky Chateau

,,, and see if either of those resolve the issue as they both have quite active rear channels.

Post by alexandru27 July 7, 2014 (14 of 40)
@Iain: I think you are right and, if true, that would be indeed weird. I have both those SACD's you've mentioned(actually, I now see I have "Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy" of Elton John instead) and these indeed sound OK, that is, the surrounds get quite active.

I'll try to get a SACD with symphonic music from the company you indicated to check if I'll notice a difference. Otherwise, looks like I'll have to look for multichannel classical music mostly on BD-audio - hopefully those will sound allright on multichannel. The irony though, is that I've noticed (was not aware of it before) some may have stereo DTS HD MA tracks - previously I thought all DTS-HD is multichannel 5.1 or 7.1)

So, as you're saying you have the same symptom with classical SACDs on your (better) system, buying a dedicated SACD player (or a more expensive BDP) won't necessary solve for me this issue with weak/thin multichannel rendering of classical recordings?

Come to think of it, the very fact that we get good surround activity on double layer SACDs like those from Elton John and Pink Floyd, brings doubt on the explanation that the weak surround activity on other SACDs would be generated by the difficulty to reasonably access the multichannel layer on double layer SACDs played on cheap BDPs.

Post by Iain July 7, 2014 (15 of 40)
alexandru27 said:

...

I'll try to get a SACD with symphonic music from the company you indicated to check if I'll notice a difference. Otherwise, looks like I'll have to look for multichannel classical music mostly on BD-audio - hopefully those will sound allright on multichannel. The irony though, is that I've noticed (was not aware of it before) some may have stereo DTS HD MA tracks - previously I thought all DTS-HD is multichannel 5.1 or 7.1)

So, as you're saying you have the same symptom with classical SACDs on your (better) system, buying a dedicated SACD player (or a more expensive BDP) won't necessary solve for me this issue with weak/thin multichannel rendering of classical recordings?

Correct. A different BDP will be a waste of money at this point.

WRT CC, AS titles seem to be the most consistently mastered, IIRC. Of the two I have from them, this will be a good place to start:
The Bohemian Album - Amsterdam Sinfonietta

Good luck, mate.

Post by Iain July 7, 2014 (16 of 40)
Also, here's a great resource for titles with aggressive surround mixes:
/showthread/87526//y?page=first

Post by alexandru27 July 7, 2014 (17 of 40)
@Iain: Great! Interesting link. I will check what seems appealing to me from those lists.

Post by Iain July 7, 2014 (18 of 40)
alexandru27 said:

@Iain: Great! Interesting link. I will check what seems appealing to me from those lists.

This should be on that list:
Ravel: La valse, Ma mère l'Oye, Tzigane, Boléro, Pavane - Rizzi

... if it isn't it should be, as it's a real beauty; one of my favourites.

Post by truelies July 7, 2014 (19 of 40)
The machine can read if SACD layer only. So I think the lens can read SACD correctly. The problem is it choose CD layer first when goes to Hybrid.

Post by Kal Rubinson July 7, 2014 (20 of 40)
alexandru27 said:

With bluray disks I do have normal 5.1 sound, so it's not an issue with the BDP. I did check with several SACDs and the problem is still there. At the moment I don't have a single layer multichannel SACD, but I do have multichannel files originated from SACDs, which all play/sound allright on my system.

If this is a consistent problem with SACDs but BDs and files are OK, there is a setup issue with your equipment.

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