Thread: "DSD 2 ch only" on AV receiver

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Post by valerio April 23, 2015 (1 of 18)
Hello,
the manual of my Pioneer VSX-324-K-P AV receiver states that, among the compatible signals via the HDMI terminals, there is SACD (DSD 2 ch only). What does this mean? I tried to play a 5.0 SACD (through Pioneer BDP-140) and the sound is indeed 5.0. Does this mean that the receiver outputs DSD only when it is 2 ch, otherwise it converts the signal to PCM? If this is true, what kind of conversion is it? What am I actually listening to?
I suppose that there is no other way to output the multichannel DSD signal from the BDP-140 considering that, apart from HDMI, the only other audio outputs are optical and 2 ch analog.
Thank you

Post by Claude April 23, 2015 (2 of 18)
The words in the manual (page 21) suggest that the receiver can only accept DSD input in stereo.

Are you sure the player didn't output PCM (internal DSD-PCM conversion in the player) when you played the SACD in multichannel? Many receivers don't support DSD input at all, so all the players have this conversion option.

Post by Marpow April 23, 2015 (3 of 18)
Claude said:

The words in the manual (page 21) suggest that the receiver can only accept DSD input in stereo.

Are you sure the player didn't output PCM (internal DSD-PCM conversion in the player) when you played the SACD in multichannel? Many receivers don't support DSD input at all, so all the players have this conversion option.

Valerio,
You have a good question and it is one that I am certainly learning about.

I believe Claude's answer is likely to be correct.

I am adding a piece of equipment to my system that is exclusively to support 2 channel DSD whereas I believe what I have now is what Claude explains your A/V receiver converts DSD to PCM.

My new machine (pre amplifier) that is an addition to my receiver is described as this: (Note: I have not received it yet but looking forward to it.)

"The D150 digital stereo preamplifier expands McIntosh's digital music capabilities by supporting many of the newest digital audio formats such as DSD and DXD. A USB input accepts up to 32-bit/384kHz signals and supports DSD64, DSD128, DXD 352.8kHz and DXD 384kHz. Two coaxial and two optical inputs accept up to 24-bit/192kHz signals. It is a simple solution to add the latest digital music formats to your existing system."

I actually am not even sure what my capabilities will be in regards to pure DSD multi channel. Another machine needed?

Post by Iain April 23, 2015 (4 of 18)
valerio said:

Hello,
the manual of my Pioneer VSX-324-K-P AV receiver states that, among the compatible signals via the HDMI terminals, there is SACD (DSD 2 ch only). What does this mean? I tried to play a 5.0 SACD (through Pioneer BDP-140) and the sound is indeed 5.0. Does this mean that the receiver outputs DSD only when it is 2 ch, otherwise it converts the signal to PCM? If this is true, what kind of conversion is it? What am I actually listening to?
I suppose that there is no other way to output the multichannel DSD signal from the BDP-140 considering that, apart from HDMI, the only other audio outputs are optical and 2 ch analog.
Thank you

Sounds as though you have it sorted. Sit back and enjoy the music.

I couldn't find the user manual for the 324, so I had a go of the VSX-424-K manual:
http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/support/manuals/VSX-424-K/page.html

Frankly, the writing of Pioneer user manuals is atrocious. I looked at the specifications section, which is incomplete and missing most of the basic information that one would expect.

In comparison, have a go of the Sony BDP or Denon AVR user manuals and you will see the difference in supplied information.

Post by valerio April 23, 2015 (5 of 18)
Thank you all!
The statement on my manual is exactly the same as that of the VSX-424-K one.

The receiver display shows "DSD" when I play the 5.0 SACD, which is obviously the same things that happens when I play a 2 ch SACD. Should I think that the manual gives the wrong information? I wrote to Pioneer to ask for help.

Anyway, what kind of conversion do receivers usually do from DSD to PCM? I couldn't find any information on the web.

Post by Yoropiko1 April 24, 2015 (6 of 18)
valerio said:


Anyway, what kind of conversion do receivers usually do from DSD to PCM? I couldn't find any information on the web.

Generally receivers that cannot do a pure DSD>>>Analog conversion ( which is most of them, especially these days ) will most often do a DSD>>>PCM conversion at 24Bit/88.2Khz, this it seems is the preferred resolution.

I'm not aware of any that do a 24/96 or 24/192 conversion, you can however convert DSD to 24/176.4Khz internally in a number of Sony Players and send that digitally via HDMI to your receiver which should simply convert that higher resolution to analog. This is assuming of course you use no EQ in your receiver and just select the "Pure Audio" setting. Failing to do so will result in your receiver converting the 176.4Khz signal back down to a lower resolution defeating the whole point. As to which is better is subjective and you'll no doubt find numerous opinions on the matter : )

Post by Iain April 24, 2015 (7 of 18)
Yoropiko1 said:

...

I'm not aware of any that do a 24/96 or 24/192 conversion, you can however convert DSD to 24/176.4Khz internally in a number of Sony Players and send that digitally via HDMI to your receiver which should simply convert that higher resolution to analog. ...

Quite right, that.

All Sony SA-CD enabled BDP from the BDP-Sx70 model series in 2010, to the current machines, BDP-S6200 and BDP-S7200, will decimate DSD bitstream to this higher PCM sample rate.

Sony are unique of this, as all other BDP decimate to 24/88.2.

Post by valerio April 27, 2015 (8 of 18)
Claude said:

The words in the manual (page 21) suggest that the receiver can only accept DSD input in stereo.

Are you sure the player didn't output PCM (internal DSD-PCM conversion in the player) when you played the SACD in multichannel? Many receivers don't support DSD input at all, so all the players have this conversion option.

Claude,
the receiver display indicates "DSD", both with 2 ch SACDs and multichannel ones. If the player outputs PCM (as a result of a conversion from DSD), shouldn't the receiver display indicate "PCM"?

Post by Claude April 27, 2015 (9 of 18)
That makes sense. It means that the manual is incorrect, because the receiver can also accept a multichannel DSD signal.

Post by Yoropiko1 April 27, 2015 (10 of 18)
Agreed, the manual is very confusing, again I'm not aware of any receivers that can accept a DSD stream via HDMI being able to do so with 2 channel only, they either accept both 2 and 5 channel or neither ( ie PCM only ).

The manual confuses further by suggesting that Pure Mode will process incoming signals " as is " which does imply that this receiver would, upon receiving an incoming DSD signal via HDMI, convert it straight to analog with no PCM conversion prior to this. Maybe it does, although my guess is that is unlikely given the price point of this receiver and the likely 24bit/192Khz DAC built into it. I suspect this Pioneer, like so many Yamaha receivers will accept the DSD stream and even display the words " DSD " on the front panel, but will convert it to 24Bit/88.2Khz before again converting that signal to analog.

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