Thread: Linn downloads - SACD quality?

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Post by Castor March 6, 2007 (1 of 46)
I was surprised to see the following on Linn's website.

"Studio Master
The format we offer is lossless WMA at various high bit rates (check each title for actual details). This file type is suitable primarily for use on a PC. These files can be played on a MAC, but with limited use. They cannot be imported directly into iTunes on a MAC. This download is offered for those who desire the best sound possible. The quality is identical to that of an SACD. The format will be dependent on the actual recording method we used originally. No DSD files are offered as it is not possible to play them back on a PC so an equivalent PCM format is offered. These files offer true "studio quality" and are what was used by Linn to produce the production version of our CD releases. Be sure to check compatibility with your PC sound card etc before you download a file and note that large amounts of storage space are required for each track."

I notice that they also say it is not possible to burn these files to a CD, a DVD is needed.
Questions
1 Will anyone really download these recordings to play on just a PC?
2 If burnt on a DVD and then played on a universal player will the sound be better than a RBCD?
3 "The quality is identical to that of an SACD" Can this be true?


http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads-what.aspx

Post by deckerm March 6, 2007 (2 of 46)
Castor said:

I was surprised to see the following on Linn's website.

"Studio Master
The format we offer is lossless WMA at various high bit rates (check each title for actual details). This file type is suitable primarily for use on a PC. These files can be played on a MAC, but with limited use. They cannot be imported directly into iTunes on a MAC. This download is offered for those who desire the best sound possible. The quality is identical to that of an SACD. The format will be dependent on the actual recording method we used originally. No DSD files are offered as it is not possible to play them back on a PC so an equivalent PCM format is offered. These files offer true "studio quality" and are what was used by Linn to produce the production version of our CD releases. Be sure to check compatibility with your PC sound card etc before you download a file and note that large amounts of storage space are required for each track."

I notice that they also say it is not possible to burn these files to a CD, a DVD is needed.
Questions
1 Will anyone really download these recordings to play on just a PC?
2 If burnt on a DVD and then played on a universal player will the sound be better than a RBCD?
3 "The quality is identical to that of an SACD" Can this be true?


http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads-what.aspx

Even if true, who has speakers connected to their PC such that you could actually tell it was like SACD quality. Are there that many people in the SACD group that have a Windows Media Edition PC hooked up to their listening rig and has a sound card sufficiently upgraded to enjoy this?

Post by Castor March 6, 2007 (3 of 46)
deckerm said:

Even if true, who has speakers connected to their PC such that you could actually tell it was like SACD quality. Are there that many people in the SACD group that have a Windows Media Edition PC hooked up to their listening rig and has a sound card sufficiently upgraded to enjoy this?

Absolutely! This was my point. I am disappointed to see that a company like Linn are muddying the waters in this way.

Post by ramesh March 6, 2007 (4 of 46)
Linn sell a hard-disc drive based music player, and it has one of those stupid Linn I-cunt-spel-propah names. Presumably these are meant to be played an such a high end computer. [ It's conceivable that Ivor Tiefenbrum was actually only named 'IT' by his parents, and then he fleshed out his initials with a stupid name, hence carrying on to their entire product line.]

Does Linn have the bit rates of their recent releases advertised? I just bought their SACD of the Brahms clarinet quintet, and it sounds a better recording than most of their previous SACD releases.

Post by Stanbury March 6, 2007 (5 of 46)
ramesh said:
Does Linn have the bit rates of their recent releases advertised?

*** JUST ADDED *** Scottish Chamber Orchestra - Mozart Serenades - 88.2kHz / 24 bit
Artur Pizarro - The complete works of Ravel vol. 1 - 88.2kHz / 24 bit
Jonathan Freeman-Attwood - La trompette retrouvée - 88.2kHz / 24 bit
La Serenissima - Vivaldi Cantatas & Sonatas - 88.2kHz / 24 bit
Dunedin Consort - Handel Messiah - 88.2kHz / 24 bit
George-Emmanuel Lazaridis - Liszt Sonata in B Minor & Paganini Etudes - 88.2kHz / 24 bit
Lesley Schatzberger - Brahms Clarinet Quintet - 48kHz / 24 bit
Barb Jungr - Walking in the Sun - 44.1kHz / 24 bit
Barb Jungr - Waterloo Sunset - 44.1kHz / 24 bit
*** JUST ADDED *** Claire Martin - Too Darn Hot! - 96 kHz / 24 bit

Post by Johnno March 7, 2007 (6 of 46)
I wonder how big the files are, if they can't be burnt to a CD. (I see we are talking 24 bit, 88.2 or 96kHz sampling here. I can't see how 44.1kHz sampling can lead to high quality 'SACD' sound). It sounds as if it would be necessary to have a large hard drive specifically for them.

Post by Claude March 8, 2007 (7 of 46)
The main purpose of these downloads is to play the files from a PC hard disc, through a high quality sound card or a DAC, or from a hard drive based media player (Squeezebox, etc). They will sound like hi-rez PCM, i.e. comparable to DAD or DVD-A discs with 24bit/96kHz PCM.

If you want to burn a CD, get the 44.1kHz/16bit downloads instead.

The only problems I have with these downloads are:
- silly pricing: the download is more expensive than the SACD version
- stereo only

Concerning the difference between SACD and download sound quality (stereo only), this depends on the playback hardware of course, and on the nature of the recording. If the recording was made in 24bit/88.2kHz PCM, why would the conversion to DSD (for the SACD) sound better than the non-converted PCM download?

Post by seriousfun March 8, 2007 (8 of 46)
Castor said:

I was surprised to see the following on Linn's website.

"Studio Master
The format we offer is lossless WMA at various high bit rates (check each title for actual details). This file type is suitable primarily for use on a PC. These files can be played on a MAC, but with limited use. They cannot be imported directly into iTunes on a MAC. This download is offered for those who desire the best sound possible. The quality is identical to that of an SACD. The format will be dependent on the actual recording method we used originally. No DSD files are offered as it is not possible to play them back on a PC so an equivalent PCM format is offered. These files offer true "studio quality" and are what was used by Linn to produce the production version of our CD releases. Be sure to check compatibility with your PC sound card etc before you download a file and note that large amounts of storage space are required for each track."

I notice that they also say it is not possible to burn these files to a CD, a DVD is needed.
Questions
1 Will anyone really download these recordings to play on just a PC?
2 If burnt on a DVD and then played on a universal player will the sound be better than a RBCD?
3 "The quality is identical to that of an SACD" Can this be true?


http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads-what.aspx

I hadn't heard that Linn was doing this - thanks for the link.

I have a computer connected to appropriate speakers. I just may have to buy a few tracks tonight and experiment. Will consumers adopt this? I haven't bought anything from iTunes since it is low-bitrate and laden with DRM.

If you have software like Minnetonka Diskwelder, you can burn a DVD-A. You will have to convert the WMA to PCM, so this stage will be critical, and it will be the x-factor determining whether this disc will sound better than a CD (but I would guess that it would, even a 24/48 DVD-A burned with DW Bronze).

High-bitrate WMA = DSD...maybe! WMA and Apple lossless can both sound pretty darn good from my experience. Linn assumedly would use great equipment to convert their DSD or PCM masters to WMA. Because both Microsoft and Apple have their heads up their ***es, both formats are distribution-challenged. A DSD-original recording transcoded into any other format has to suffer to some extent, but WMA and Apple Lossless both might survive this translation well (it's all just a little math, isn't it???).

In their FAQ, Linn states "For now we have decided not to use any form of Digital Rights Management" Yes!!!!

US$2.90 per Master Quality track? I believe there is a market. An un-served market.

Post by Claude March 8, 2007 (9 of 46)
seriousfun said:

You will have to convert the WMA to PCM, so this stage will be critical

AFAIK, the files consist of lossless WMA compression, and are PCM by nature. The uncompressed file should be bit-identical to the original WAV file.

Post by Linn March 12, 2007 (10 of 46)
Hi there,

I work for Linn and want to be very open about this from the start.

The files we offer are the actual files we made when recording the albums, we even say this on the site. We do not convert anything as it never improves when you fiddle with it. Therefore the files we offer are the same as the files we use to make the physical discs we release, we make no attempt to confuse here.

In answer to the questions asked by Castor;

1. Yes many people do download these files, they tend to have independent audio convertors or stand alone media players. The feedback from them has been fantastic. Check out the FAQs on our site re media players etc.

2. We have burned DVDA discs and played them back on a Unidisk player with very impresive results. The suggestions made by seriousfun are correct and yes, the high bit rate files burned on a DVDA disc do sound considerably better than a red book CD. You can of course re sample the high bit rate files down to CD quality and burn a red book disc yourself to check this.

3. The files are identical to the original recordings and tests we have done reveal identical bit patterns through our system from upload to download to burn, this is why we make the claims we do.

We decided to do it this way as we were not at all happy with the sound quality offered by other download sites. We are in a very fortunate position in that we serve a different type of customer who wants the best. We may consider other download sites as they serve other customers, then the choice re higher quality and higher price vs lower quality and lower price can be made by customers.

We have tried to get rights to use Apple lossless but no luck so far.

The files are there for all to try, you can even download single tracks so it is worth experimenting rather than speculating. Let us know what you think but we think you will be impressed.

Linn.

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