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Discussion: Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 3 & 8 - Paavo Järvi

Posts: 14
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Post by ramesh March 15, 2007 (1 of 14)
It would be good to incorporate track timings of the first two movements of the 'Eroica', and whether the first movement exposition repeat is observed, so that we could make comparisons to the other performances we have. As there's no introduction in the first movement of the Eroica, a track timing is a good indicator of the basic tempo, whereas the intros to the first movements of #1, 2, 4 and 7 mean that timings here aren't as useful.
Timings help to characterise Karajan's 1962 Eroica, as even though the first movement was very fleet, he took his time over the Funeral March, whereas Toscanini and Szell ( I think ) took all movements of the Eroica briskly : hence, a different aesthetic concept.

Post by mdt March 15, 2007 (2 of 14)
ramesh said:

It would be good to incorporate track timings of the first two movements of the 'Eroica', and whether the first movement exposition repeat is observed, so that we could make comparisons to the other performances we have. As there's no introduction in the first movement of the Eroica, a track timing is a good indicator of the basic tempo, whereas the intros to the first movements of #1, 2, 4 and 7 mean that timings here aren't as useful.
Timings help to characterise Karajan's 1962 Eroica, as even though the first movement was very fleet, he took his time over the Funeral March, whereas Toscanini and Szell ( I think ) took all movements of the Eroica briskly : hence, a different aesthetic concept.

I don't think it's necessary to have timings on this recording. After a few seconds of listening I turned it of. I tried again later, but never was able to continue listening. I wonder whether the guy swallowed a hypersonic air plane, this is definitely much to fast for my taste, the music doesn't flow, it just runs away and I cant sense any kind of emotion anywhere.
By the way, what's wrong with taking ones time over a funeral march, just try to picture an actual funeral march before your eyes.

Post by zeus March 15, 2007 (3 of 14)
ramesh said:

It would be good to incorporate track timings of the first two movements of the 'Eroica'

Click on the links to Amazon etc, then on the cover image. Vendors increasingly these days are showing images of the back covers as well. If you squint you can just read timings etc.

Post by ramesh March 15, 2007 (4 of 14)
mdt : I wasn't criticising a slow funeral march, merely pointing out that although many short reviews of the Karajan Beethoven cycles referred to the fast tempos, this was misleading with respect to his performances of the Funeral March. The greatest performances I have come across of this movement are from Klemperer and Furtwängler--- both are slow.
By the way, Max, are you going to upgrade your Accuphase to the new DP 800/ DC 801? Apparently this still retains the Accuphase digital volume control, but for the first time Accuphase are keeping all the SACD digital processing in DSD form, without any PCM conversion.

Post by akiralx March 16, 2007 (5 of 14)
ramesh said:

Timings help to characterise Karajan's 1962 Eroica, as even though the first movement was very fleet, he took his time over the Funeral March, whereas Toscanini and Szell ( I think ) took all movements of the Eroica briskly : hence, a different aesthetic concept.

I didn't find Karajan's 1962 Eroica first movement so fast - whereas his 1977 one really was fast (and criticised for that reason at the time I think). Scherchen's Westminster Eroica (from 1958 I think) certainly is fast.

Post by mdt March 16, 2007 (6 of 14)
ramesh said:

mdt : I wasn't criticising a slow funeral march, merely pointing out that although many short reviews of the Karajan Beethoven cycles referred to the fast tempos, this was misleading with respect to his performances of the Funeral March. The greatest performances I have come across of this movement are from Klemperer and Furtwängler--- both are slow.
By the way, Max, are you going to upgrade your Accuphase to the new DP 800/ DC 801? Apparently this still retains the Accuphase digital volume control, but for the first time Accuphase are keeping all the SACD digital processing in DSD form, without any PCM conversion.

Unfortunately my bank account doesn't allow upgrading to the DP 800/ DC 801. I've read the information on the machine and I'm absolutely sure that it's fantastic. My dealer has already upgraded his home stereo accordingly and he is absolutely enthusiastic. I will however avoid listening to the new set, because I don't like the idea of having to continue to listen to my old machine after having heard the new one, since I know from experience, that new Accuphase equipment is always considerably superior to its predecessor, one could buy it blindfold. If any one else here has the bucks to do so, go on and buy it as fast as you can.

By the way this doesn't retain the Accuphase digital volume control, nor did it's predecessor contain it. The digital volume control was a future of the digital pre-amp DC 330 which can be used with either Accuphase disc drive instead of the digital processor normally going along with it. With the new processor however this no longer makes sense, since it is pure DSD and the volume control isn't. This would mean yet more money for a new analogue pre-amp (argh). As was reported to me, the disc drive alone, which is the first one to be designed by Accuphase from the outset, already brings considerable sonic improvement when used with the existing converter/digital pre-amp.

Post by indelibo September 2, 2007 (7 of 14)
I'd like to see more comparisons of this and the Vanska. I own the Vanska; is this worth buying as a companion/replacement? David Hurwitz recently gave this a glowing review on classicstoday.com and I think his judgment is pretty solid considering all the albums he has reviewed.

Post by akiralx September 3, 2007 (8 of 14)
indelibo said:

I'd like to see more comparisons of this and the Vanska. I own the Vanska; is this worth buying as a companion/replacement? David Hurwitz recently gave this a glowing review on classicstoday.com and I think his judgment is pretty solid considering all the albums he has reviewed.

I don't think it's anywhere near as good as the Vanska - but I seem to be in a minority. Excellent sound though, that I will concede!

Post by LvB1952 February 17, 2008 (9 of 14)
ramesh said:

It would be good to incorporate track timings of the first two movements of the 'Eroica', and whether the first movement exposition repeat is observed, so that we could make comparisons to the other performances we have. As there's no introduction in the first movement of the Eroica, a track timing is a good indicator of the basic tempo, whereas the intros to the first movements of #1, 2, 4 and 7 mean that timings here aren't as useful.
Timings help to characterise Karajan's 1962 Eroica, as even though the first movement was very fleet, he took his time over the Funeral March, whereas Toscanini and Szell ( I think ) took all movements of the Eroica briskly : hence, a different aesthetic concept.

If you need timings, they are:

1st Movement: 15'22" (includes exposition repeat)
2nd Movement: 13'19"
3rd Movement: 5'31" (includes all repeats I believe)
4th Movement: 11'04"

If you want to look at comparative timings of a lot of performances and a discussion of tempo going back to the earliest recorded Eroica's, see the link below.

http://www.grunin.com/eroica/

You will get all you want. Mr. Grunin hasn't updated his discography since August 2007, but there are over 400 listings.

Personally, I love Furtwangler's as well as this recording; just for different reasons. I even love the Giulini recordings (both with LA and La Scala). I have 152 different recordings myself.

Post by krisjan September 28, 2009 (10 of 14)
John Miller's (Geohominid's) review of this release is one of the most lucid, informative reviews I've ever read on this site. Thank-you John! You've really peeked my interest in Jarvi's LvB despite the fact that I have both Vanska's and Haitink's cycles already and regard both as excellent. Perhaps if RCA releases the cycle for reduced price I might spring for it.

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