Thread: SACD / DSD via HDMI-- what's the skinny?

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Post by FunkyMonkey December 27, 2007 (41 of 103)
egern said:

Right, the Pioneer DV-600V manual states the ability to pass 5.1 DSD through HDMI from SACDs. This should happen when the "Initial Settings" for HDMI is Auto (DSD) on the Pioneer.
For some strange reason it has not been working with my Onkyo TX-SR805 for some time. After my recent post here I decided to try it again and to my great suprise it worked! I've really not changed anything on the receiver...

Now when I play 5.0 SACD via HDMI I see "DSD Direct" on the Onkyo display and the sound is indeed multichannel.
I can't hear the difference though between DSD and analog multichannel sound on my Monitor Audio Silver RS Series surround set of speakers.

Thanks to all of you for the feedback!

Thanks for the feedback.

So you are saying that the DACs in the 805 give the same SACD sound as the DACs in the Pioneer...for your setup.

Can you instigate Audyssey in the Onkyo for DSD Direct? I can't say I've checked the 805's manual in regards to this. If so, I would have said, if like me you have spent hours on the Audyssey setup, then the results will be improved clarity imaging, and frequency response. :-)

Post by joh_ve January 6, 2008 (42 of 103)
I've read that you have to select upscaling to at least 720p (because of specifications for hdmi 1.3 even if of course there is no video on sacd). you should also set HDMI audio output to no on the 805. unfortunately I only have the 605 so I can't verify.

Joe

Post by Polly Nomial January 6, 2008 (43 of 103)
FunkyMonkey said:

Can you instigate Audyssey in the Onkyo for DSD Direct? I can't say I've checked the 805's manual in regards to this. If so, I would have said, if like me you have spent hours on the Audyssey setup, then the results will be improved clarity imaging, and frequency response. :-)

I doubt it, sadly.

Post by mindread January 10, 2008 (44 of 103)
Will the yamaha 1800 and/or 3800 process DSD signals exactly like the Onkyo 805/905 does from the oppo 980H? (over HDMI). Onkyo has a DSD processing function, but I can't find anything in the yamaha manual or on their website that indicates it will do that. The Onkyo uses a DSD decoding chip, I believe. Can't find any specs on what chips are in the Yamahas. The yamahas have a direct path function, but no mention of if it's effect on the DSD signal. Anyone have insight on this? Thanks.

Post by dobyblue January 22, 2008 (45 of 103)
The Yamaha uses DSD1792 DAC's from what I can gather.
The Onkyo and Denon use the PCM1796.

The Onkyo and Denon both suggest that they can process DSD to analog, but the question is whether or not the clock speed of the chip is up to it.

The only chip I can find from BB is the DSD1700 which has a clock speed of 11.289MHz (256 * 44,100)

The Onkyo manual states the following for the 875 and 905:

"In listening modes other than DSD Direct and Pure Audio, DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM."

The Denon 4308CI manual states the following:

"When playing DSD signals in the DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the DSD signals are converted as such into analog signals. When playing in other surround modes, the DSD signals are first converted into PCM format, then into analog signals."

Sure sounds like it means there is no PCM stage in those modes. I believe the Yamaha is the same as it has a DSD light on the LCD display. I also read that the DSD1792 (or PCM1792) is preferrable to the PCM1796.

Post by FunkyMonkey January 23, 2008 (46 of 103)
dobyblue said:

...The Onkyo and Denon both suggest that they can process DSD to analog, but the question is whether or not the clock speed of the chip is up to it....

...The Onkyo manual states the following for the 875 and 905:
"In listening modes other than DSD Direct and Pure Audio, DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM."....

...I also read that the DSD1792 (or PCM1792) is preferrable to the PCM1796....

Some questions and comments:

Either the clock speed is up to it or it is not. Surely it is if the manual says it does DSD to analogue. Or, what did you mean by that?

I cannot find any reference to DSD to analgoue conversion the 805's manual, but it is encouraging that the 875 goes straight to analogue.

Why is the DSD1792 (or PCM1792) preferable to the PCM1796?

Post by dobyblue January 24, 2008 (47 of 103)
FunkyMonkey said:

Some questions and comments:

Either the clock speed is up to it or it is not. Surely it is if the manual says it does DSD to analogue. Or, what did you mean by that?

I cannot find any reference to DSD to analgoue conversion the 805's manual, but it is encouraging that the 875 goes straight to analogue.

Why is the DSD1792 (or PCM1792) preferable to the PCM1796?

Did a little bit more research.
Only the Yamaha RX-Z11 has the DSD1792 chip, and it's MSRP is $5,000.
The RX-V3800 uses the PCM1791A chip, which is inferior to both the PCM/DSD1792 chip and the PCM1796 chip.

The PCM1792 chip is preferrable because it has a dynamic range of 132dB.
The PCM1796 has a dynamic range of 123 dB.
The PCM1791A has a dynamic range of only 113 dB.

Denon 4308CI and Yammy RX-V3800 have the PCM1791A.
Onkyo 805/875/905 have the PCM1796.
Yamaha RX-Z11 has the DSD1792.

All these chips in their electrical charecteristics have a data clock speed of 11.289 Mhz, so that can handle direct DSD to analogue conversion.

This is good to know. Based on the DAC's I will now choose between the TX-SR875 and TX-NR905. I wouldn't mind the 905 as it can stream from PC, but I won't pay more than $1499 for it which was the pre-order price at J&R last year.

Value Electronics will sell it for $1599 which is also a good price as it's $1999 in most places.

Interesting that Denon would opt for the 1791 instead of the 1796 or 1792. A little disappointing even.

I would love to spring for the Yammy 11.2 receiver, but the WAF is nowhere near that compromising.

Post by flyingdutchman January 24, 2008 (48 of 103)
dobyblue said:

Did a little bit more research.
Only the Yamaha RX-Z11 has the DSD1792 chip, and it's MSRP is $5,000.
The RX-V3800 uses the PCM1791A chip, which is inferior to both the PCM/DSD1792 chip and the PCM1796 chip.

The PCM1792 chip is preferrable because it has a dynamic range of 132dB.
The PCM1796 has a dynamic range of 123 dB.
The PCM1791A has a dynamic range of only 113 dB.

Denon 4308CI and Yammy RX-V3800 have the PCM1791A.
Onkyo 805/875/905 have the PCM1796.
Yamaha RX-Z11 has the DSD1792.

All these chips in their electrical charecteristics have a data clock speed of 11.289 Mhz, so that can handle direct DSD to analogue conversion.

This is good to know. Based on the DAC's I will now choose between the TX-SR875 and TX-NR905. I wouldn't mind the 905 as it can stream from PC, but I won't pay more than $1499 for it which was the pre-order price at J&R last year.

Value Electronics will sell it for $1599 which is also a good price as it's $1999 in most places.

Interesting that Denon would opt for the 1791 instead of the 1796 or 1792. A little disappointing even.

I would love to spring for the Yammy 11.2 receiver, but the WAF is nowhere near that compromising.

Look at the Denon 3808 then. It is new and perhaps has the chip you are looking for.

Post by FunkyMonkey January 24, 2008 (49 of 103)
dobyblue said:

Did a little bit more research.
Only the Yamaha RX-Z11 has the DSD1792 chip, and it's MSRP is $5,000.
The RX-V3800 uses the PCM1791A chip, which is inferior to both the PCM/DSD1792 chip and the PCM1796 chip.

The PCM1792 chip is preferrable because it has a dynamic range of 132dB.
The PCM1796 has a dynamic range of 123 dB.
The PCM1791A has a dynamic range of only 113 dB.

Denon 4308CI and Yammy RX-V3800 have the PCM1791A.
Onkyo 805/875/905 have the PCM1796.
Yamaha RX-Z11 has the DSD1792.

All these chips in their electrical charecteristics have a data clock speed of 11.289 Mhz, so that can handle direct DSD to analogue conversion.

This is good to know. Based on the DAC's I will now choose between the TX-SR875 and TX-NR905. I wouldn't mind the 905 as it can stream from PC, but I won't pay more than $1499 for it which was the pre-order price at J&R last year.

Value Electronics will sell it for $1599 which is also a good price as it's $1999 in most places.

Interesting that Denon would opt for the 1791 instead of the 1796 or 1792. A little disappointing even.

I would love to spring for the Yammy 11.2 receiver, but the WAF is nowhere near that compromising.

If you get the 905, please realy how it sounds when a DSD stream is fed into it, as I would like to upgrade to it eventually because I am impressed by the 805.

Many thanks. :-)

Post by hok007 January 25, 2008 (50 of 103)
flyingdutchman said:

Look at the Denon 3808 then. It is new and perhaps has the chip you are looking for.

I believe the 3808 still uses the PCM1791A.

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