Thread: Genesis Box Sets

Posts: 24
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Post by crubio February 26, 2009 (11 of 24)
FullRangeMan said:

Dear CiderGlider,
Yes, when the DVD-V is PCM Linear or LPCM, 8bits are allocated to sound and 16bits are allocated to image, cause the image need more bits space than audio.
But when the DVD is Audio only (DVD-A) and are LPCM, the 24bits are all dedicated to sound, cause there is no need to reserve bits to image.
DVD is not my ground, but I never see a DVD-V with LPCM sound, always is used a compression format for audio, as DTS, DD/AC3 etc...
Sincerely,
Full

Ok, new theory, I don't have 5.1, is the mix which I'm hearing missing the center, rear left-right?
Is this why it sounds more forward, clearer and with more air?
The DVD-V is going from my laptop to the CDP's DAC and then to the Pre and the amps. No
5-1 processing.

Sorry if this is naive.

Crubio

Post by crubio February 26, 2009 (12 of 24)
FullRangeMan said:

Dear CiderGlider,
Yes, when the DVD-V is PCM Linear or LPCM, 8bits are allocated to sound and 16bits are allocated to image, cause the image need more bits space than audio.
But when the DVD is Audio only (DVD-A) and are LPCM, the 24bits are all dedicated to sound, cause there is no need to reserve bits to image.
DVD is not my ground, but I never see a DVD-V with LPCM sound, always is used a compression format for audio, as DTS, DD/AC3 etc...
Sincerely,
Full

Ok, new theory, I don't have 5.1, is the mix which I'm hearing missing the center, rear left-right?
Is this why it sounds more forward, clearer and with more air?
The DVD-V is going from my laptop to the CDP's DAC and then to the Pre and the amps. No
5-1 processing.

Sorry if this is naive.

Crubio

Post by FullRangeMan February 26, 2009 (13 of 24)
crubio said:
Ok, new theory, I don't have 5.1, is the mix which I'm hearing missing the center, rear left-right?
Is this why it sounds more forward, clearer and with more air?
The DVD-V is going from my laptop to the CDP's DAC and then to the Pre and the amps. No 5-1 processing.
Sorry if this is naive.
Crubio

All depend of the soundboard your computer have and the type of amp or Receiver you have (Stereo or Multi Ch.).
If your soundboard have 5.1 or 7.1 you may be listen multichannel, if all the cables are connected, if the soundboard output is stereo it do not will transform itself in multiCh in the MultiCh Receiver or preamp.
As your profile do not inform what Amp or Receiver you have I do not know where is the problem.
First you have be sure the DVD disc have 5.1 or 4.0 mix, afew DVD-V of some Rock Bands have Stereo sound or 2.0 sound.
Say what equips. you have ?

Post by Claude February 26, 2009 (14 of 24)
It looks like you are hearing a stereo downmix made by the DVD player software from the multichannel track of the DVD, which will of course sound different from the true stereo mix (SACD stereo or CD layer).

Post by FullRangeMan February 26, 2009 (15 of 24)
Claude said:

It looks like you are hearing a stereo downmix made by the DVD player software from the multichannel track of the DVD, which will of course sound different from the true stereo master (SACD stereo layer).

I agree, if your computer have a stereo soundboard you are hearing stereo or 2.0, what for me is fine.
So you are lossing nothing in sound, it is just a different mix from the 5.1.

Post by crubio February 26, 2009 (16 of 24)
The SACD signal is coming from my Modwright sony 999 ES, it's using the tube output which is 2 channel, my pre is a Supratek Grange and my amps are H2O Ice powered 250 Watt @ 4 Ohms, the speakers are single driver Lamhors 1.8.

No 5.1

The laptop is going through a AMR cdp-77, using it's DAC through a USB connection.
This is also running through the Supratek pre and so on. The laptop is a 15"laptop from 2007, not sure what sound card it might have. The menu on the disc does not allow for a choice between 5.1 and 2 channel. Perhaps due to the existence of the other discs.

The mix idea seems the most likely as of now. It's so very different.

Cr

Post by FullRangeMan February 26, 2009 (17 of 24)
crubio said:
The laptop is going through a AMR cdp-77, using it's DAC through a USB connection...

Your laptop should have a Stereo DVD-ROM ( there is no SACD optical transport for computer, only in PS3 game players ) as the output is just one USB 2.x port.
Your transport do not play SACD discs only DVDs A,V,ROM and RW, so in this Full Range Horns the Stereo sound must be very good.
I do not know why you feel it is bad, you have experience with horns before ?
Maybe you do not get used to this horn sound.
Full
P.S. : Make a test with a regular DVD Player ( borrow one and remove the LapTop ) to see if the sound change or no, so you will get some reference for comparison.

Post by crubio February 26, 2009 (18 of 24)
FullRangeMan said:

Your laptop should have a Stereo DVD-ROM ( there is no SACD optical transport for computer, only in PS3 game players ) as the output is just one USB 2.x port.
Your transport do not play SACD discs only DVDs A,V,ROM and RW, so in this Full Range Horns the Stereo sound must be very good.
I do not know why you feel it is bad, you have experience with horns before ?
Maybe you do not get used to this horn sound.
Full
P.S. : Make a test with a regular DVD Player ( borrow one and remove the LapTop ) to see if the sound change or no, so you will get some reference for comparison.

Mr Full,

No the sound is terrific, i was just astonished as to how different the DVD-V sound is from the SACD layer. The SACD seemed darker and with less air than the DVD-V. Also PG voices is much more forward and the high notes seem to have more information. In a sense, the DVD-V seems to have a greater wow factor which eventually might grow fatiguing.

Cr

Post by dobyblue February 27, 2009 (19 of 24)
FullRangeMan said:

Dear CiderGlider,
Yes, when the DVD-V is PCM Linear or LPCM, 8bits are allocated to sound and 16bits are allocated to image, cause the image need more bits space than audio.
But when the DVD is Audio only (DVD-A) and are LPCM, the 24bits are all dedicated to sound, cause there is no need to reserve bits to image.
DVD is not my ground, but I never see a DVD-V with LPCM sound, always is used a compression format for audio, as DTS, DD/AC3 etc...
Sincerely,
Full

What do you mean "image"?

I have numerous DVD's with LPCM tracks and they are either 16-bit or 24-bit and several players confirm that the AUDIO track is indeed this, just like it would be on a DVD-Audio track.

Two different models of Pioneer Elite players and a PS3 as well as the Onkyo's read-out confirm that the LPCM is 16-bit or 24-bit depending on the disc. Watching the video of Dave Matthews Band's "Concert in Central Park" on the PS3 shows you the LPCM track running at a constant 2.304 Mbps (which is 24-bit/48kHz LPCM) and the video track is variable MPEG-2 with peaks close to 8 Mbps.

DVD-Video is capable of 2-channel 24-bit 96kHz PCM, but most often is 16-bit/48kHz or 24-bit/48kHz in order to leave bandwidth for the video or space on the disc for the encode, as the audio takes up much more space in PCM than Dolby does.

For example the DVD-Video release of James (English Britpop band) has both a 5.1 Dolby Digital track and 2.0 LPCM track. The Dolby track is around 350MB while the LPCM track is 1.2GB.

There is no image coming through with PCM, because the image is encoded in MPEG-2 and is a separate stream from the audio.

2.0 24/48 PCM = 2.304 Mbps, leaving roughly 6~7 Mbps for the MPEG-2 video feed.

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000011.shtml

Post by FullRangeMan February 27, 2009 (20 of 24)
dobyblue said:


I have numerous DVD's with LPCM tracks and they are either 16-bit or 24-bit and several players confirm that the AUDIO track is indeed this, just like it would be on a DVD-Audio track.

Two different models of Pioneer Elite players and a PS3 as well as the Onkyo's read-out confirm that the LPCM is 16-bit or 24-bit depending on the disc. Watching the video of Dave Matthews Band's "Concert in Central Park" on the PS3 shows you the LPCM track running at a constant 2.304 Mbps (which is 24-bit/48kHz LPCM) and the video track is variable MPEG-2 with peaks close to 8 Mbps.

DVD-Video is capable of 2-channel 24-bit 96kHz PCM, but most often is 16-bit/48kHz or 24-bit/48kHz in order to leave bandwidth for the video or space on the disc for the encode, as the audio takes up much more space in PCM than Dolby does.

For example the DVD-Video release of James (English Britpop band) has both a 5.1 Dolby Digital track and 2.0 LPCM track. The Dolby track is around 350MB while the LPCM track is 1.2GB.

There is no image coming through with PCM, because the image is encoded in MPEG-2 and is a separate stream from the audio.

2.0 24/48 PCM = 2.304 Mbps, leaving roughly 6~7 Mbps for the MPEG-2 video feed.

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000011.shtml

Dear DobyBlue,
Image is screen, TV etc...
About the bits seems you are right, by the info you have, I read this image/16bits info in 1998 in a audio magazine, from 1998 to 2009 the software technology may bettered.
Full

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