Thread: Jitter is analogue... from the guys that make some of the best sounding equipment I've heard...

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Post by stvnharr May 5, 2009 (11 of 45)
For the technically minded, here is a link to a current paper and discussion on jitter:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=67751.0

Post by Paul Clark May 5, 2009 (12 of 45)
For all you Snake Charmers:

"In order to determine the maximum acceptable size of jitter on music signals, detection thresholds for artificial random jitter were measured in a 2 alternative forced choice procedure. Audio professionals and semi-professionals participated in the experiments. They were allowed to use their own listening environments and their favorite sound materials. The results indicate that the threshold for random jitter on program materials is several hundreds ns [nanoseconds] for well-trained listeners under their preferable listening conditions. THE THRESHOLD VALUES SEEM TO BE SUFFICIENTLY LARGER THAN THE JITTER ACTUALLY OBSERVED IN VARIOUS CONSUMER PRODUCTS." [Emphasis mine]

(read through this thread for more jitter chit-chat)
/showthread/32083/32083/y#32083

I wonder what is the threshold for the Wow and Flutter of LP turntables and tape players? Oh wait! What about Studio Master "Tapes"?! :-O

Post by raffells May 6, 2009 (13 of 45)
Paul Clark said:

For all you Snake Charmers:

The answers to your comments about this pretty ancient set of test done on CD level testing was without the updated knowledge and explanations that has been included in the review and some other previous comments.
If you choose to ignore them or just dont understand then believe what you want. The postings like yours only show a fixed almost luddite set of thinking.
History has taught people that it is usally a waste of time explaining the answers and benefits of personal experiences when you have been involved.
Its a bit like the firm you strongly advocated who stated wire is wire for mains leads and several years later actually manufacturered a special mains lead.The reasons again were well known many years ago.
Furthermore if your dont already know the answer to your "hardly related" quesion about wow and flutter on turntables then I would suggest you list it as a seperate thread rather that lower the quality of this one.Though its hardly relevant to sacd.
The answer will be of course obvious and its obvious even in those ancient tests you referred to (on One type of jitter only) Peoples hearing is different.
Just curious if anyone else believes that some sets of test and results are done to prove a strongly held set of theories.Especially when it suits them.

Post by Paul Clark May 6, 2009 (14 of 45)
raffells said:

The answers to your comments about this pretty ancient set of test done on CD level testing was without the updated knowledge and explanations that has been included in the review and some other previous comments.
If you choose to ignore them or just dont understand then believe what you want. The postings like yours only show a fixed almost luddite set of thinking.
History has taught people that it is usally a waste of time explaining the answers and benefits of personal experiences when you have been involved.
Its a bit like the firm you strongly advocated who stated wire is wire for mains leads and several years later actually manufacturered a special mains lead.The reasons again were well known many years ago.
Furthermore if your dont already know the answer to your "hardly related" quesion about wow and flutter on turntables then I would suggest you list it as a seperate thread rather that lower the quality of this one.Though its hardly relevant to sacd.
The answer will be of course obvious and its obvious even in those ancient tests you referred to (on One type of jitter only) Peoples hearing is different.
Just curious if anyone else believes that some sets of test and results are done to prove a strongly held set of theories.Especially when it suits them.

There was not one iota of scientific facts in the link posted to the so called Electrical Engineer of 25 years who pushes HIS product and who said "I believe" in regards to his article about jitter.

I see no qualifications from you that places your, or anyone elses comments, above any others. I have as much a right to comment here as any other Snake Charmer. The U.S. is not the USSR - not yet!

Post by stvnharr May 6, 2009 (15 of 45)
Paul Clark said:

There was not one iota of scientific facts in the link posted to the so called Electrical Engineer of 25 years who pushes HIS product and who said "I believe" in regards to his article about jitter.

I see no qualifications from you that places your, or anyone elses comments, above any others. I have as much a right to comment here as any other Snake Charmer. The U.S. is not the USSR - not yet!

This is the internet, NOT the USA.

I don't believe Mr. Nugent was pushing any product in the paper he published in Positive Feedback. I chose to use the link to the AC forum page rather than just the paper as I thought some might like to read the ensuing forum discussion.

Mr. Clark, it is quite clear that you believe jitter either doesn't exist or is not audible. Fair enough.

Post by lowdbrent May 6, 2009 (16 of 45)
Paul Clark said:

For all you Snake Charmers:

"In order to determine the maximum acceptable size of jitter on music signals, detection thresholds for artificial random jitter were measured in a 2 alternative forced choice procedure. Audio professionals and semi-professionals participated in the experiments. They were allowed to use their own listening environments and their favorite sound materials. The results indicate that the threshold for random jitter on program materials is several hundreds ns [nanoseconds] for well-trained listeners under their preferable listening conditions. THE THRESHOLD VALUES SEEM TO BE SUFFICIENTLY LARGER THAN THE JITTER ACTUALLY OBSERVED IN VARIOUS CONSUMER PRODUCTS." [Emphasis mine]

(read through this thread for more jitter chit-chat)
/showthread/32083/32083/y#32083

I wonder what is the threshold for the Wow and Flutter of LP turntables and tape players? Oh wait! What about Studio Master "Tapes"?! :-O

Ahahahahaha!

Yes. Let's use master tapes where there will be a crap load of tape shred (unless we bake them first), gum up the machine, have wow and flutter, hiss, print through, etc and preserve it on SACD and call that disc better than CD quality.

Post by raffells May 6, 2009 (17 of 45)
Paul Clark said:
I have as much a right to comment here as any other Snake Charmer. The U.S. is not the USSR - not yet!

Yes and one day you will learn that the USSR was disolved approx 1991.I am assuming from your lack of knowledge on this subject, as well ,that you havent been there and have no personal knowledge of what freedoms they do have.
I could comment further but it would only be repeating the oft said remarks about people posting on a worldwide website which includes people from countries that have been free and democratized for more that "like" 5 minutes.Deliberate quotation marks.
Didnt women have the right to draw arms before they got the vote over there?.Do snake charmers have special rights.?

Post by Joe Rasmussen July 15, 2009 (18 of 45)
Hi Guys

First, I just wanna say that I can understand the cynicism, but I also believe that it will only be temporary. History is about to happen, digital is about to enter a new age. I know it sounds like hype, but it is not hype. Come aboard for a great ride... you WILL love it!

Been following the thread and I must admit I have a wry smile on my face. I suppose that's what happens when you know something others don't. It sounds smug, but it's human nature, so please accept my apology.

Part, and only part, of the reason is encapsulated from an email I received this morning from Bill Thalmann:

"The raves keep coming in! Kxxx Zxxxxxx of Positive Feedback Online has admitted to me that heís now so addicted to the clocks and will probably not rest easily until every digital audio device in his house has one! This will likely appear in the magazine [review] (online) soon."

Bill Thalmann has also sent an earlier email:

"Everyone Iíve installed it for... has been open-mouthed about the result. As I said to Allen, this could be the final nail in the analog coffin. I canít, for the life of me, see the sense in messing with vinyl, when digital can get this close to a live performance. I never thought Iíd hear myself saying this, but I donít think Iíve ever heard vinyl beat this..."

Bill saying this about vinyl IS significant. He was Conrad-Johnson's chief designer for 20 years and designed tube phono stages with rather hefty price tags. For him to say vinyl is dead???? What is the world coming to????

Please, I beg you guys to understand, we are NOT grand standing, rather something wonderful is happening.

raffles > Most of the genuine truth in the article is not news.

And it was intended to be "news" perse'. But I do wonder what you would have written in my place and being in my boots. The problem is that I just KNEW that there would be somebody (many really) who would react in exactly this way. By all means have a critical nature (I believe I have one myself) but don't just give up on us yet, OK?

Paul Clark > There is no Digital side of Analogue, really.
As a matter of fact it's all Analogue.

Love it! Actually a very true statement. Digital is carried on analog signals.

I have been accused of having written mumbo-jumbo. It was NOT meant to be read that way, honestly. It was neither intended to mislead and that really is hurtful to impute that as a motive. I have enough confidence to believe that those who know me, and many for more years that feel comfortable to count, also have confidence in me. They also know that I don't have a disposition towards
hyperbole. As for chasing dollars, some of you out there know that I have talked you out of doing something that would have been easy dollars (could have done it in my sleep) and also heard me say "I don't want to make things just sound better, I want to make things sound great." I want to be challenged and not bored to death doing the usual opamp type upgrades. There is a limit to what they can do. I am excited by what we do because we make a real effort to extend the boundaries and what makes it REALLY exciting is when you exceed your own wildest dreams. And THIS is the case here.

Julien > I'm still level 6 on my modded player. Which already is dangerous to listen to Take your time, but when more is heard about it, I think you will be able to be confident and in the meantime no pressure at all. Soon the Positive Feedback review will be out and there will be more to come. Then doubters may go back to the user reviews that are already out there and take them seriously (the number of beta testers is near FIFTY - this has been a MAJOR undertaking,
a mini Manhattan Project). The hard slog is behind us and it's been a little over 12 months. It was always going to take about two years to become mainstream. It takes time and a lot of effort, but at a certain point this is going to reach critical mass and gain its own momentum. Please be as patient
as we have had to be.

stvnharr > The article in question was written by Joe Rasmussen in Sydney, Australia.

Correct.

raffles > The link that Julien sent, Is pure advertising. Allen Wrights firm is clearly written on the bottom.

Here is the story. I wrote it and Allen didn't even know until AFTER I posted it.

I had just had an abdominal operation and the Doc had said I had to rest for a complete week. But that only gave me time to do other non-physical things and hence I sat down an wrote it pretty much in one day and spent a few more days just fine-tuning it. I promise that I wrote it AFTER the morphin had worn off, OK? :-)

I then emailed Allen for a comment. It was this time I coined the idea of calling it Terra Firma - much for the reason discussed in the article. Allen loved it. It stuck. It was decided that TWO products was to be developed. The all-out version would be external and designed to compete against the Teac Esoteric Rubidium Clock selling for USD $15,000 which invariably, (based on previous marketing paterns) would be 30K Oztralian. The less expensive internal option would be 35% of the cost and yet still maintain most of the performance. The external ended up being called the Terra Firma Uberclock and the internal option Terra Firma Lite. The Uberclock is manufactured in Switzerland and is less than 10% of the Rubidium clock and the Terra Firma Lite, made here in Australia, less than 3% than the Rubidium. World-wide distribution will be out of the Switzerland office of Vacuum State.

Manufacturing is only now being stabilised and usual teething problems sorted out (we hope), but all is looking really good.


> I believe the terra firma clock is a modification of a modification of a tent clock circuit.

Yes, Tent is the most common oscillator we use but not exclusively. The Tent is a real top notch quality device and we gladly asmit using it. We have an excellent personal report with Guido Tent and he has our highest regard. But when I do DVD players based on 27MHz master clock I use a Fox oscillator that I also like a lot and amazing for the money, which also results in a saving that I pass on to the end consumer.

In fact, raffles, you are right when you point to the power supply. Again no secret there, in fact that is what Terra Firma is about. Maybe we are more in agreement than disagreement. It is but a matter of what extent. It is not mumbo-jumbo that the crux of the matter is noise and PS noise induced jitter is THE worst contributor to the most objectionable form of jitter. In fact, and
not just ourselves have observed this, it is possible to increase the amount of total jitter and yet reduce in a much smaller degree jitter of the worst kind. We now have a playback that measures HIGHER jitter and yet sound better than when it had lower jitter. Also look at "jisco jitter" as this also points the way. It's a bit like THD which is fairly meaningless until you look at the spectral distribution of individual harmonic distortions, again I refer to the work of Jean Hiraga. In a lateral sort of way thinking something very similar is happening here.

We are only NOW really starting to understand just how invasive jitter can be and the threshold is WAY LOWER than we ever imagined. If you guys can get a hold on Robert Harley's review of the Rubidium clock in TAS, it comes across what a SHOCK it was to him (and how a BIG DEAL it was to him). And to us, because we can now get the same results he got. Hearing really IS believing.

raffles > As regards Julien chatting to Allen and being impressed by his conversion to CD sounding better ,well this is hardly suprising as Modwright will no doubt be glad to get another customer for their franchise.

Modwright? Whose that?

Seriously, wrong Wright, right? :-)

raffels > Audiocom ,who I regard as the originators of these upgrades carfully state...superclocks will "transform" the sound.

I am sure it will and equally sure that is what you have perceived and observed. I got no beef with you, we are in the same camp.

But what if I said that replacing the Superclock with a Terra Firma will then again further transform it in a way you could not have imagined (it happened to us) and how do you check the veracity of that statement. Can you totally exclude that possibility. To be honest, you cannot. But I can assure you
that we know EVERY after market clock out there and that includes the Superclock, and you are in for a glorious shock. You are also welcome phone me, I am extremely accessible and love a chat, on 02-96074650 or 0412-203382.

Don't burn your bridges, instead we may end up good friends and you install Terra Firma in players and we will BOTH end up with smiles on our faces.

WHEW! Glad to get this of my chest. Have a good day to you all.

Cheers.

Joe R.

Post by stvnharr July 15, 2009 (19 of 45)
Joe Rasmussen said:

Hi Guys

But what if I said that replacing the Superclock with a Terra Firma will then again further transform it in a way you could not have imagined (it happened to us) and how do you check the veracity of that statement. Can you totally exclude that possibility. To be honest, you cannot. But I can assure you
that we know EVERY after market clock out there and that includes the Superclock, and you are in for a glorious shock. You are also welcome phone me, I am extremely accessible and love a chat, on 02-96074650 or 0412-203382.

WHEW! Glad to get this of my chest. Have a good day to you all.

Cheers.

Joe R.

Hi Joe,
Nice to have you here.
FWIW, I am currently awaiting a TF from Allen. Seems that he ran out of 33.8688 oscillators about same time as Guido's father took real bad sick, and everything is all backed up.
TF will replace Superclock 3 & psu in one of my Marantz 8260's that doesn't have much Marantz left, just the nameplate and digital circuitry. Analogue circuitry is here: (http://members.quicknet.nl/ra.vdsteen/index_en.html), just scroll down to Discrete Output Stage for the schematic (the 8400 one). This connects direct to the 4397 dac chip and goes straight out to rca's. It transforms everything!
So, will be interesting to hear what the TF can add.

Cheers,
Steve

Post by Joe Rasmussen July 16, 2009 (20 of 45)
Hi Steve

Yes I heard about Guido's Dad, I've got an elderly Mother that can affect my schedule in unpredictable ways. Also, he doesn't have any of the newer 22.5792MHz, I note that Superclock caters for it. The new Sony XA-5400ES uses this and we need it.

Looked at the discrete 8400 schematic, quite nice. Sums diff voltages from 4397 voltage DAC, gives 1.7V RMS without gain. I see the source follower of the T5 170 Jfet (and can use bi-polar as well - try a darlington pair). This can be improved by putting it into constant current and constant voltage mode. Replace R11 with aother 170 Jfet as current source. Above T5 fit another 170, fit a 1M/1M5 voltage divider, the junction of which goes to the gate and the upper 1M to +15V and the lower 1M5 connects to source of T5 AND by-passing this 1M5 with a cap from 0.15uF to 0.47uF. The improvement should be quite obvious.

Re Terra Firma, the raves keeps coming in, this one just arrived from Malaysia:

-----

G Day Joe,

Just thought I'd let you know that I have finally fitted the Uber Clock at Octave yesterday on my sony X777ES player. However, this is used only as a transport to drive a TDA1541a tubed ouput ( no opamps) DAC unit. No reclocking either. All clock signals taken from the transport.

The results is no less than mind blowing in which I have never imagined a clock could do on a player. ( In fact I was reluctant to replace the clock in the beginning focusing on everything else but the clock.

In one sentence the clock absolutely improves reproduction of details, background noise, bass and most of all a very solid stable image that is painted rock solid on the soundstage.

Oh not to mention I now understand when they tell me digital sound goes ANALOGUE!

Absolutely fantastic!.

How you guys do it I still do not have a clue!

Regards
Dixon

-----

Another one from Bill Thalmann:

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BTW, I had an opportunity to A/B two Sony SACD players recently. The first was a DVP-S9000ES with a full Level 6 upgrade. The other was a SCD-777ES with a Level 6+ and TF Lite. Switching back and forth between the players playing the same disc was astonishing. The 9000ES sounded lifeless by comparison (and normally, that player, upgraded, does not give up much to its larger cousins). Truly amazing.

Best,

Bill

-----

Both of these were received within the last 24 hours.

We are enthused, we are confident and we just can't wait until the rest of the world catches on. Did I say we were confident? :-)

Cheers.

Joe

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