Thread: Wheatus Download Release in DSD for Playstation3 Korg MR1 Etc...

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Post by michi July 23, 2009 (11 of 24)
wheatus said:

Is there any indication that the Tascam WILL play some other DSD file format...perhaps the .dff files?

If so let us know and we could add the file format for no extra charge.

This brings up a valid point....It seems to me that the DSD realm is in a sort of dispersed and fragmented state when it comes to file formats and standards. Any and all information regarding ease of use and compatibility would be greatly appreciated. I'd want nothing more than to give access to any and all full res formats for download.

Thanks,
brendan b brown
wheatus.com

Yeah, Tascam wants the DFF (dsdiff) files... But it will play back the DFF files if you provide them. Pretty much the same file as DSF but just has a different header.

I played the DSD Disc on my 5400 just fine using the Playstation 3 instructions.

I don't think it sounds loud. I had to turn up my amp more than a lot of discs for it. There's some intentional distortion in the guitar and maybe that's confusing some people, but if you listen, even when the guitar shows some distortion the voice is as clean and clear as anything. The mix isn't clipping.

Wheatus: I do have a Tascam DVRA1000HD too and I love the dacs and sound of it, I would LOVE it too if you would also put up the DFF files as well as the DSF files, it would be great to be able to play it back on that.

I'm pretty sure the Sonoma or Pyramix can put out DFF files as well as DSF, because DFF is the SACD mastering format.

As far as fragmenting goes: really there's only two formats. DSF and DFF (DSDIFF). I'm not sure what the rationale was in splitting those because the file headers are VERY similar.

The downloadable Windows Media Player plugin will play both DSF and DFF without any trouble. ( http://www.ps3sacd.com/downloads/DSDtoPCMPlaybackPlug-in.zip ) The sound quality is identical because it's only the file header that's a little bit different.

Actually if you get me the list of the DFF filenames, i can make the .PRJ and .LST (playlist) files for the Tascam DVRA1000/DVRA1000HD to include in your deluxe package and write up some quick instructions. It's pretty similar to DSD Disc instructions once you have the DFF files.

Post by wheatus July 23, 2009 (12 of 24)
michi said:

Yeah, Tascam wants the DFF (dsdiff) files... But it will play back the DFF files if you provide them. Pretty much the same file as DSF but just has a different header.

I played the DSD Disc on my 5400 just fine using the Playstation 3 instructions.

I don't think it sounds loud. I had to turn up my amp more than a lot of discs for it. There's some intentional distortion in the guitar and maybe that's confusing some people, but if you listen, even when the guitar shows some distortion the voice is as clean and clear as anything. The mix isn't clipping.

Wheatus: I do have a Tascam DVRA1000HD too and I love the dacs and sound of it, I would LOVE it too if you would also put up the DFF files as well as the DSF files, it would be great to be able to play it back on that.

I'm pretty sure the Sonoma or Pyramix can put out DFF files as well as DSF, because DFF is the SACD mastering format.

As far as fragmenting goes: really there's only two formats. DSF and DFF (DSDIFF). I'm not sure what the rationale was in splitting those because the file headers are VERY similar.

The downloadable Windows Media Player plugin will play both DSF and DFF without any trouble. ( http://www.ps3sacd.com/downloads/DSDtoPCMPlaybackPlug-in.zip ) The sound quality is identical because it's only the file header that's a little bit different.

Actually if you get me the list of the DFF filenames, i can make the .PRJ and .LST (playlist) files for the Tascam DVRA1000/DVRA1000HD to include in your deluxe package and write up some quick instructions. It's pretty similar to DSD Disc instructions once you have the DFF files.

michi,

Thanks very much for your offer....I'm gonna check and see what it would mean to incorporate a new file format and a set of instructions at wheatus.com.

This is the kind of advice we do appreciate. Obviously we have a desire to reach out to as many people as is possible but in this case, it's a technological inclusiveness that we seek as well and I'm afraid we do not currently have all of the DSD compatible players that are out there at our disposal for testing and development of the download masters.

Ideally we'd have each box here at the studio and go through it with a fine tooth comb until we were able to develop appropriate masters for each, when it comes to file format, headroom, and even vibe. We just don't have that sort of budget right now...BUT...If the donations keep coming in that may change. Regardless, I can see that our system will need to adapt to the demands and requirements of all DSD playback systems if we are to reach out to all DSD fans, and their gear.

We started with Playstation3 because it is the most prolific DSD playback device on the market....but I can see now that it might not be the first choice for serious DSD fans.

Regardless, I promise we'll get there in time. Thanks for your help!

brendan b brown
wheatus.com

Post by audioholik July 23, 2009 (13 of 24)
wheatus said:

We started with Playstation3 because it is the most prolific DSD playback device on the market....but I can see now that it might not be the first choice for serious DSD fans.

you can also play DSD files on SCD-XA5400ES SACD player, Korg mr-2000s and Tascam DVRA1000HD

Post by wheatus July 23, 2009 (14 of 24)
OK....so I just got confirmation from one of our esteemed DSD users that the DSD_DISC DVD-R does indeed play back on the Sony SACDXA5400ES...Here is his e-mail:

I can take the burnt DVD using the instructions for the PS3, put it in the XA5400ES, hit play, and go. Then I can take that very same disc and go downstairs to my PS3, put it in, and go.

Tested the DSD_DISC on both last night. Even brought the same disc over to a friend's house with an XA5400ES to show him, and then over to two others with PS3's, and showed them, using the same disc.

Totally simple, totally awesome, and so far the reception has been people standing there while listening- "You meanů you downloaded this? From the band's website? And it sounds this good? Seriously?"

Everyone I've showed it to said they want to buy the EP to encourage more DSD downloads. I'll probably donate more soon just for the hell of it to encourage this. Someone just posted a link to it on the PS3SACD.COM forums too.

Again, thanks a lot for doing this.

Name Withheld

Post by RWetmore July 23, 2009 (15 of 24)
I asked this in a thread before but no one knew. Will the XA5400ES play DSD 128 DSF files? Can anyone who owns the Korg try it?

Post by Orient Pirate December 3, 2009 (16 of 24)
Hi All,

First post on the site, so go easy on me (Also posted this message on another SACD site and no reply :-( Hoping you guys will have an answer...?

I downloaded the Wheatus DSD EP and have sound problems on replay using my 5400ES.

I download the DSD files via my Vaio into Sony Sonic Stage Mastering software. I then burnt the imported DSD files onto DVD as normal (as DSD files).

I inserted the DVD into the 5400ES and at first listen I thought the sound was good but listening more carefully and a second time I could hear a compressed sound on drums and symbols especially. There are no pops,clicks or any unusual sounds apart from this 'compressed' sound on anything with high dynamics.

This is my first DSD download so I have nothing to compare it with however other DVD's I have burnt using imported WAV or MP3 via SSM have been fine.

Im using the analoge outs on the 5400ES which I know is not true DSD out. Is this the problem? DSD to PCM conversion on the 5400ES?

I used both Sonic Stage Mastering and DSD Direct sofware to burn the DVD and still the same results.

Help please.

Tim

Post by Petrus December 3, 2009 (17 of 24)
wheatus said:

I mastered with no peaks above -.3 in Pyramix, which is actually decidedly low considering the records that are coming out these days. We actually went back to a softer limiter setting after a car test because it was almost as loud as some other contemporary rock CD's and we did not want that. What does your adobe measure the peaks at?

Loudness in this context really does not mean where the peaks are (see below), but what is the average loudness level lies compared to peaks.

What you should look at are three numbers at Audition statistical analysis: peak, minimum RMS and average RMS.

The peak SHOULD be near zero, around -0.5 dBFS. This ensures the largest possible dynamic range before system noise floor, thus highest possible quality*.

Lowest RMS value tells where the lowest level is. In good classical in quiet venue this is around -70 dBFS. Average RMS is the level where the music stays most of the time.

For the worst modern rock loudness war records the minimum RMS is around -6 dBFS and the maximum level keeps hitting zero (clipping). That means the loudness variation is practically nil. That is loud.

*) with classical recordings this varies a bit, with orchestral and organ the peaks are near zero. With lighter ensembles and and solo instruments the peaks are usually set a bit lower to reflect the nature of the music.

Post by audioholik December 3, 2009 (18 of 24)
Orient Pirate said:

Im using the analoge outs on the 5400ES which I know is not true DSD out. Is this the problem? DSD to PCM conversion on the 5400ES?

Are you sure the 5400ES converts DSD to PCM?

Post by michi December 3, 2009 (19 of 24)
audioholik said:

Are you sure the 5400ES converts DSD to PCM?

The 5400ES does not convert DSD to PCM on its analog outs.

This came from a rumor started a while back, from the XA5400ES using "Burr Brown PCM1796 dacs". Adding to the confusion was the HDMI interface, which apparently *can* transport PCM, as well as DSD, over HDMI 1.3a, depending on the handshake.

People took the "PCM" prefix on the dac and ran with it. The PCM1796 does not require PCM input, nor does it convert to PCM.

Burr-Brown uses the "PCM" prefix for the majority of their DACs. Many of them can do both DSD and PCM. Their "DSD" prefixes started with the DSD1701, (used in the Meitner Dac8) which could ONLY do DSD, but now, the DSD counterparts can also do DSD and PCM. (such as the DSD1702, used in the Sony CE775.)

Take a look at TI's datasheet for it if you like.

The only difference between the PCM1796 and DSD1796 is pinout. The DSD1796 is 'preconfigured' for DSD, but the PCM1796 absolutely can, and does, take direct DSD in, and has no mechanisms inside of it (accumulators or RAM) that would be used or required to convert DSD to PCM. (Conversely, the DSD1796 can also take direct PCM in.)

XA9000ES: PCM1738 - Does not convert to PCM.
XA5400ES: PCM1796 - Does not convert to PCM.
Denon 5910: PCM1792 - Does not convert to PCM.
Tascam DV-RA1000: PCM1792 (DAC) and PCM1804 (ADC) - Does not convert to PCM, and records in DSD.


Orient - I think the drum track on the Wheatus disc was pre-compressed; but only the drum track, and I don't think it was done at final recording time. The rest of the instruments/vocals are not compressed. I think that's just how the drum track sounds.

If you want a good test at DSD Disc, download David Elias' "The Window". This was done by Gus Skinas at the Super Audio center here in Boulder. Gus knows what he's doing, and is probably one of the reasons we still have DSD happening out there.

Post by Orient Pirate December 4, 2009 (20 of 24)
Michi..and others,

Thanks for the reply and info given above.

So can I assume the 5400es is outputting DSD via its analogue outputs?

I really thought DSD out was only through the HDMI connection on this machine? Hence my presumption on the DSD to PCM conversion.

Regardless to all of the above and technical issues I think the Wheatus mix is not as good as could be (to my ears) and my hi-fi rig of Nagra components and Verity Audio speakers are pretty much 'musical' in the making of most music media.However the system will highlight flaws if there are any.

For curiousity Im going to donload the flac version and compare the two formats to see if Im hearing the same "compression" on some of the DSD tracks.

Will also download the Davis Elias tracks as recommended tomorrow.

O.P

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