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Discussion: Faure/Debussy/Ravel: Piano Trios - Florestan Trio

Posts: 17
Page: 1 2 next

Post by canonical August 3, 2009 (1 of 17)
Well, I just ordered this ... The sa-cd.net blurb states:

> DSD recording ... Recorded at Henry Wood Hall, London, March 10-12, 1999

Is that even possible? March 1999??? DSD?

Post by Johnno August 3, 2009 (2 of 17)
I actually have the SACD and the recording is certainly very fine indeed but I don't think it was DSD-mastered. At the top right of the label there is DDD and that would indicate to me that was initially PCM-mastered and edited digitally. The DSD mastering for SACD would have been done later, yet I do not see any other date but the 1999 recording date, and the P and C date of MCMXCIX (1999). The rest remains a mystery.

The performances are of the standard one has come to expect from this very fine ensemble.

Post by Hedgehog August 4, 2009 (3 of 17)
canonical said:

Well, I just ordered this ... The sa-cd.net blurb states:

> DSD recording ... Recorded at Henry Wood Hall, London, March 10-12, 1999

Is that even possible? March 1999??? DSD?

Dear Canonical,

I know you are aware of my Hyperion thread, but this is just to warn you that this disc is also on the deletions list. I do hope you are able to get it because it is a ravishingly beautiful offering on SACD. The high-lying violin playing in the Ravel is exquisite.

Post by Claude August 4, 2009 (4 of 17)
Johnno said:

I actually have the SACD and the recording is certainly very fine indeed but I don't think it was DSD-mastered. At the top right of the label there is DDD and that would indicate to me that was initially PCM-mastered and edited digitally. The DSD mastering for SACD would have been done later, yet I do not see any other date but the 1999 recording date, and the P and C date of MCMXCIX (1999). The rest remains a mystery.

In my experience, it's not possible to deduct the recording technology from the presence of the DDD indication or DSD logo.

DDD just means that the the CD layer comes from a digital recording chain, and DSD means that there is a DSD signal on the SACD layer. This applies to to both DSD and PCM recordings.

Sony made the first commercial DSD recording in 1996 ( Tony Williams Trio: Young at Heart ), but I don't know when DSD recording equipment was available to other labels.

Anyway, I find this focus on DSD vs PCM ridiculous. I bet that most DSD fans would not be able to distinguish between DSD and 96/24 PCM recordings in a blindfold test.

Post by tailspn August 4, 2009 (5 of 17)
Claude said:

I bet that most DSD fans would not be able to distinguish between DSD and 96/24 PCM recordings in a blindfold test.

That's a bet I think you would loose if you, and DSD fans, were aware of what to listen for, and listened to a well set up, accurate, listening system. The difference between DSD and PCM is subtle, but quite distinguishable, if you care to listen for the difference. It's all about the impulse response, the absence of the pre and post ringing that accompanies all PCM to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the sampling speed, which is largely absent in DSD. The difference can be heard in the imaging of the sound stage. It is very low level detail that is more time/phase related then bit depth, and IMO, distinguishes itself in a more real sounding recording.

Tom

Post by Ubertrout May 31, 2013 (6 of 17)
I know there's been some discussion of the source of this disc, and it's worth noting that Hyperion has put this online as a "Studio Master" quality download as 24/44.1 (they've also done this for a number of other SACDs they've released). Since they've put other offerings available for download at 24/96, I don't think they've chosen this bitrate as the top bitrate on offer.

I'm not trying to take anything away from this lovely disc, which I listen to and enjoy. And since Hyperion has no interest it seems on resuming SACD production, this won't affect sales. But a straight answer as to the original bitrate of this disc and others by Hyperion which claim to be DSD-recorded would be nice.

Post by zeus June 1, 2013 (7 of 17)
Ubertrout said:

I'm not trying to take anything away from this lovely disc, which I listen to and enjoy. And since Hyperion has no interest it seems on resuming SACD production, this won't affect sales. But a straight answer as to the original bitrate of this disc and others by Hyperion which claim to be DSD-recorded would be nice.

I hesitate to further this discussion ... especially for a long-deleted disc ... but Hyperion's policy was to add the DSD logo on the back for DSD recordings and leave it off for others. There were one or two honest slip-ups where this rule wasn't applied, but in general most of Hyperion's SA-CDs were original DSD recordings, except those of Angela Hewitt which were recorded by Audite's Ludger Böckenhoff.

As for the "Studio Master" designation, this is meaningless here as in many (most?) cases in which it is advertised. Absent availability of the disc, I would have no hesitation in purchasing the 24/44.1 download (it was only ever stereo). Higher bitrates are for those with lesser DACs.

Post by operamuso June 1, 2013 (8 of 17)
I see there are several copies available on Amazon UK for under £30 - not cheap, but as it's such a lovely disc I would recommend people to snap them up if they don't have it already.

Post by canonical June 1, 2013 (9 of 17)
Ubertrout said:

it's worth noting that Hyperion has put this online as a "Studio Master" quality download as 24/44.1 (they've also done this for a number of other SACDs they've released). Since they've put other offerings available for download at 24/96, I don't think they've chosen this bitrate as the top bitrate on offer.

Originally, I was somewhat sceptical that a 1999 recording could be DSD (see the first post above).

However, ... in support of "It is pure DSD":

1. The following site refers to a Sony/GrooveNote Pure DSD SACD Sampler demo disc that asserts that all the content on the demo disc is pure DSD ... and it includes tracks from this Florestan Faure/Debussy SACD:

http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?650-Sony-Groove-Note-Pure-DSD-SACD-Sampler-Now-Available



2. The next site notes that the recording engineer, Tony Faulkner, was the first to record in the UK using DSD, starting in 1998(!), and DSD multi-channel from 2000.

http://www.hificritic.com/editorial/faulkner.aspx

Since this is a 1999 stereo recording, all the details seems consistent with the "it is pure DSD" position.

Oh - and it sounds great.

Post by lennyw June 1, 2013 (10 of 17)
From discussions I've had with a chap at Hyperion, I'm inclined to think the above is correct, and wouldn't read more into the 24/44.1 release than necessary. I tried to encourage them to release the discs that were recorded in DSD as DSD downloads. We'll see...

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