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Discussion: Sibelius: Karelia Suite, Finlandia, The Wood-Nymph etc. - Vänskä

Posts: 445
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Post by Polarius T March 9, 2011 (41 of 445)
[in reply to Arnaldo's post #41 above:]

My "idol"? In my field, research and writing about research is simply raw material that you don't emote about and you save idolizing to your partner and kids at home or to the musicians you listen to.

If it was someone else, I would ask you to please explain how that affects the results, but let's just say you don't need to.

There is a difference between sarcasm and trying to sound sarcastic, and it's moreover one that's more pronounced than that between 16/44 and DSD.

Post by emaidel March 9, 2011 (42 of 445)
DSD said:

Emaidel mid-bass can rattle if turned up enough, it's the DEEP bass that is missing.

Baloney. Read Robert's post on this movement. And, having worked in the audio industry for over 30 years, I think I know the difference between mid bass and deep bass.

Post by DSD March 9, 2011 (43 of 445)
emaidel not true! Just LISTEN to the thousands of SACDs and other recordings that actually have TRUE REALISTIC DEEP BASS including one on the BIS label Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring, Petrushka - Litton This recording PROVES that BIS can record the full spectrum of sound and at 24/44.1kHz! Listen especially to the double basses and deep wind instruments! I hope he sticks with realism now that he has discovered it and not revert to the old BIS sound.

Post by tream March 9, 2011 (44 of 445)
FWIW, I agree with those who find this to be a well-balanced recording, with plenty of bass.

Vanska is one of today's better conductors, and of course is expert with Sibelius, and this is a most recommendable release.

Post by wehecht March 9, 2011 (45 of 445)
Let's see, for the 40 or so most recent BIS releases (which includes the Sibelius that's the subject of this thread)the positive recommendations total 260+ and the negative about 28, more than half of which are confined to only three discs, this Sibelius, the Walton symphonies, and the new Symphonie Fantastique, which is a beautiful recording of an ill conceived interpretation. I think the numbers tend to prove Ed's point pretty well.

Post by Tootsie March 9, 2011 (46 of 445)
tream said:

FWIW, I agree with those who find this to be a well-balanced recording, with plenty of bass.

Vanska is one of today's better conductors, and of course is expert with Sibelius, and this is a most recommendable release.

+1

I own 48 BIS SACD (out of 269). I've never been disappointed with the sound quality of them.Let me say that I LOVE deep bass. All the BIS SACD I had a chance to listen to, gave me enough bass.
OTOH, I sold all my TELARC SACD but 3, as I found them artificial sounding and, most of all, uninteresting musically.

You can count my voice as one of those who support Bissie.

Post by flyingdutchman March 9, 2011 (47 of 445)
So far, I've only seen Arnaldo spouting off against BIS (aside from Teresa, of course) and this he a person who only listens via headphones.

And, btw, I have never added all my discs to a library. I should probably do that...would have a lot of BIS.

Post by Tootsie March 9, 2011 (48 of 445)
Arnaldo said:

...

For a substantially better view of disc ownership by registered users, the search must be for "top libraries" (classical only). And the numbers (as of now) don't lie here, with a BIS disc only appearing at no. 53, while Pentatone starts at 6 and Channel at 11.

On the first 52 records appearing with that query, 31 are reissue of old analog recording of core repertoire (RCA, MLP and even one DG) that were sold at a cheap price, when there where not much choice of SACD.
No wonder they appear in a lot of people library, especially as they generally are essential musically.
BIS records often some more adventurous repertoire that might be less appealing to people.

Post by wehecht March 9, 2011 (49 of 445)
Your points relate to how many of what discs are in peoples libraries. That's obviously a way of looking at the question. Unfortunately that approach gives people who won't listen to a BIS recording for whatever reason a de facto vote on whether the recordings are good. It seems more reasonable to me to look at what the people who've actually put their cash on the line and then listened to the recordings think about them, and from that perspective BIS has about a 90% approval rating.

Frankly I don't care what someone who won't listen to a BIS recording thinks about it, because his, or her, opinion is based on nothing but conjecture and is therefore worthless. This would, of course, be true of any other label, but I don't recall others being singled out here in the same way BIS constantly is. One of the things Zeus reminds us of in the review guidelines is that we must actually have heard the disc we're reviewing. The first time I read that I thought it was ridiculous. Who would review a disc they hadn't heard? Yet in effect that's what a group of consistent BIS critics do when they talk about the putative sound quality of recordings they admit they have not heard.

I don't think every Bis disc is great (I don't think Robert thinks every BIS disc is great). The Walton was a big disappointment and to me the YNS Fantastique was even more so (because as a Philadelphian I have some stake in that one). Some repertoire choices have left me scratching my head and wondering why that one was sacd and something important like the Rosenberg symphonies disc was rbcd. But if there's any other label out there releasing more, and more varied, repertoire in generally excellent performances and high quality audio I don't know what label that is.

Post by bissie March 9, 2011 (50 of 445)
Arnaldo said:

As I very clearly explained in my post, the top recommendation search is not representative of actual disc ownership, instead, more a reflection of the "vocal-minority syndrome," which in itself paints a probable picture of posting behavior on this forum. The funny thing though is that it actually sounds like you got an unintentional lesson from Meyer & Moran in how to assemble a methodology specifically designed to validate your intended results. Regardless, Channel still comes in first as the top recommendation, Pentatone second and BIS 13th.

For a substantially better view of classical disc ownership by registered users, the search must be for "top libraries." And the numbers (as of now) don't lie here, with a BIS disc only appearing at no. 53, while Pentatone starts at 6 and Channel at 11.

Now, let the extremely vocal-minority manifest itself, as usual...

I think I can safely say that the minority lies with you, Teresa, canonical, RWetmore and, previously, hiredfox.
But being a minority doesn't mean that you should be dismissed. Your findings certainly are as valid as anyone else's, AS LONG AS THEY ARE BASED UPON ACTUAL LISTENING. I, for one, AM listening to you and your "colleagues" and try to learn.
It is because of you that we have started to record in hi-res again, where we possibly can, in spite of the inherent problems (not that anyone seems to have noted or heard/detected it).

But what really gets me is the frenzy, the almost religious fundamentalism, with which you pursue what seems to be outright hatred against anything we do. I don't understand the polarisation between you and some of the BIS proponents (which are equally foreseeable).

It is for me axiomatic that noone is perfect and noone a complete dud - if someone was he'd be out of business quickly. Every company has its stars, its super recordings - AND its duds. I wouldn't compare the new Rite of Spring and the Walton on the same day - or even month. Every record is individual, and while to compare tables may show a tendency, it is not valid on the individual SACD's advantages or disadvantages.

I think the world - and this Forum - would be a happier place without the religious zest for wanting to be right and to prove everyone else wrong, at whatever cost and with whatever means - from either side. I also think that, after having stated his or hers general attitude for or against a certain label, or a certain artist, or a certain way of recording, or layout, or whatever, that it doesn't contribute much to what this Forum ought to be about to endlessly regurgitate that stance, vilifying (from both sides) the opponents.
Just vote with your wallets instead, while perhaps turning the writing efforts towards the music, the reading of the music, the artistry (or lack of), the sound for sure, the availability, the purchase price.

This Forum more and more takes on the shape of a Middle-East war, as far as BIS is concerned.

What about showing everyone a bit of respect instead? I certainly respect Arnaldo's views. I also think all labels really are trying and should be respected. Your wallets will decide if we succeed.

Robert

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