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Discussion: Wagner: Der Ring Des Nibelungen - Solti

Posts: 88
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Post by AmonRa January 25, 2011 (31 of 88)
The Scarlet Letter...

for giving links to Dan Lavry's papers about sampling theory.

Will the stamp be removed if I praise shakti stones, $80000 SACD players and 50 year old tapes reissued on SACD?

Post by audioholik January 25, 2011 (32 of 88)
Polarius T said:

Thanks; this is both interesting and useful. Good reading for all who want to learn more about a topic where there are too many casual assumptions begin tossed around. Facts are sometimes hard to distinguish from fiction, but Lavry is doing much to help separate the two in the digital domain.

PT

These are just Lavry's opinions.

BTW I wonder if his DAC (The LavryBlack DA11, which supports input sample rates up to 200kHz!) really produces more distortion at 96kHz than at the optimal (in his opinion) 60kHz.

Post by AmonRa January 26, 2011 (33 of 88)
audioholik said:

These are just Lavry's opinions.

I certainly hope that by "Lavry's opinions" you refer only to his views about the optimal sample frequency in real world and using real world systems, and not to the science and mathematics of sampling theory!

I would suspect that Mr. Lavry has both the equipment to measure and the expertise to analyze the results to back up his claims about ADC real life imperfections negating the assumed quality gains at very high sampling rates.

Even if one disagrees, his paper is a good place to learn how PCM sampling exactly works.

Post by Daland January 30, 2011 (34 of 88)
Perhaps the Ring SACDs are not quite sold out. You can get them here for 920 EUR:

http://www.cdandlp.com/listing/2/39551-0-0/0_10/jazzybird.html

Post by aleg June 23, 2011 (35 of 88)
JazzyBird has indeed managed to find a few original red box editions in japan.

For a serious price though, but if you want one of these.

http://www.jazzybird.com/item/1/0-1401-0-2-0/114030267/richard-wagner-coffret-the-ring-sacd-hybrid-.html

Post by seth June 28, 2012 (36 of 88)
jlk155 said:

When will Universal figure out that it could issue the Solti Ring on Blu-ray Discs using the existing 24-bit/96kHz masters?

They're doing it:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Richard-Wagner-1813-1883-Der-Ring-des-Nibelungen-Limitierte-und-nummerierte-Deluxe-Ausgabe/hnum/2881881

Post by snyder June 29, 2012 (37 of 88)
Yes, it says 14 newly mastered RBCD's and 1 Blu-Ray with the whole Ring in "24-Bit-quality". No SACD. Sad. So I will stay with the Furtwangler Ring and Walkure from EMI-Japan (SACD's) and the Keilberth-Ring from Testament. And save nearly 300 EURO.
Anyhow, I think the Solti-Ring is slightly overrated.

Post by Ubertrout June 29, 2012 (38 of 88)
Hell, if we're getting the original in 24/96, I don't care if it's on Blu-Ray. And I'm sure the actual price will go below $200 at some point. Makes me feel better about missing this on SACD. Thanks for the note.

Post by Claude June 29, 2012 (39 of 88)
They should sell the Blu-ray seperately. Maybe this will also be available as a 24/96 download, but given the amount of data in this case (at least 20GB), I would prefer having it on a Blu-ray disc (but a data BD with FLAC files, not a BD Audio disc).

Post by Joseph Ponessa November 30, 2012 (40 of 88)
Now the deluxe Decca set has arrived, containing the blu-ray disc, and I have been able to compare it sonically with the Esoteric SACD. Toggling back and forth between the two of them, the Vorspiel of Act One of Die Walküre demonstrates the strengths and weaknesses of each release.
(1) The great strength of the blu-ray is that the new remastering utilized a superior time-clock and the rapid violin work of the first two minutes come across as highly precise music making. All earlier releases were a bit garbled, even the LP. I would say that the Solti blu-ray now exceeds my hitherto favorite of Karajan (on the SHM pressing from Japan) for delivery of those rapid-fire notes with clarity and incisiveness. I should never have doubted that the Vienna strings were just as capable as the Berlin, if not more so. Amazingly, this comes across to a large degree also in the accompanying CDs in the deluxe set. Which just goes to show yet again that the pre-production is just as important as the medium of delivery, if not more so. Unfortunately, the Esoteric team seem to have used the 1997 digital master, though they benefited from the publicity surrounding the work that Decca was doing at the time on forging a new master. Based on that new work, the blu-ray (and even its CD companion) blows away the SACD on clarity of small detail. Just one example: when Siegmund makes his entry and sings for the first time, the producer attempted to convey the fact that he was entering the stage by starting the volume low and cranking it up in the course of his first line of music. On the SACD, as on all previous releases, it sounds like a gimmick. The Solti Ring was criticized at the time of original release for engineering interventions like this. The blu-ray contains the same phenomenon but the effect is quite different, and much more musical. Siegfried's first notes are still more quiet, but possess more bloom, and so the change in volume does not seem to be such a stark contrast. Only with the blu-ray do we finally hear exactly what Culshaw was getting at.
(2) The great strength of the SACD is the bloom in the louder passages. The blu-ray audio is PCM stereo. As such it faithfully reproduces the PCM digital source, with glorious effect, but not as glorious as an HD-Master would have done (but then the whole cycle might not have fit on one disc). Although Esoteric sent their 1997 digital master to analogue and then to DSD, the greater elbow room provided by the SACD medium lets the music speak both loud and clear. The SACD has its merits, and if one is listening primarily for the sake of big orchestral tuttis, then the Esoteric release has no apologies to make for itself. It too is glorious. The blu-ray is better on the little details, but the SACD is better on the wide sweeping soundscapes.
(3) In conclusion, although the two releases together represent a four-figure investment, I am happy to have both. At the moment I am a little happier with the blu-ray because it is cheaper and based on a better master. I would hate to give up the Esoteric, though, because for the moment it is the only way to hear Solti's Ring in a high-definition format. I am toying with the thought of consolidating the two sets and replacing the Delta CDs with the Esoteric SACDs. Then I can compare them ad infinitum until another, better release comes out on a format perhaps yet to be invented, or the power goes out in the Valhalla of my viewing room.

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