Thread: A CHALLENGE RB CD v SACD mainly for Teresa

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Post by Disbeliever December 9, 2009 (71 of 215)
FullRangeMan said:

Hi Disbeliever,
Good to read you like Binaural, it is my favorite too, along with IsoMike.
I sorry the masses are yet in Low Resolution CD music, but Hi-End music always was a elite hobby in the Audio story, a pity indeed.
Iam afraid a RedbookCD never can sound better than a SACD, even with 24bits recording master.

If one made a SACD with this same 24bits recording master the final result will be a SACD far better than the regular CD from the same master source.
Also all hi sampling rate PCM recordings as DXD and PCM 24/192 have a cold, clinic and sterile transparency, and not a soft, tube harmonics, analog like transparency as DSD64.
I like DSD recordings cause DSD64 or DSD128 create a continous flux of data(music), that is like a analog signal in a tape, the electric signal is not broken in bits as all PCMs recordings.
RedbookCD is just 44,1khz sampling rate, a very low resolution indeed, it have just 65000 sound steps level, DVD 24/192 is around 15 millions sound steps levels and DSD64/128 have a infinitely variable sounds steps.
Look below for a better visual of the same info:
> RedBookCD: 65.000 levels of intensity of sound (Low Resolution).
> DVD-Audio: Around 15 millions levels of intensity of sound(Mid Resolution??)
> DSD-64: Infinitely variable levels of intensity of sound.
> DSD-128: OH YESsss !!

So friend Disbeliever, I fell you will agree with me that 65K and 15M can not compete with the infinite, the brokeless illimitable, continous sound stream of a SACD.
A SACD have the obligation to be better than a 16bits CD.
Regards

So are Chord Electronics Ltd lying when they say their DAC technology makes CD sound better than SACD ? I found most of the Isomike 2008A disc unlistenable. Gave it away. Also can you explain why the CD layer on some hybrid SACD discs sounds better than the SACD layer. Whilst I do not agree with everything Alvin Gold HFC reviewer says , he does say that SACD is not always better than RB CD.

Post by emaidel December 9, 2009 (72 of 215)
Disbeliever said:

can you explain why the CD layer on some hybrid SACD discs sounds better than the SACD layer

Simple: it doesn't. I don't own an extensive collection (yet) of SACD's, nor have I compared the different layers on each and every disc I own, but whenever I have, there has always been a very noticeable difference, and ALWAYS in favor of the SACD layer.

Post by audioholik December 9, 2009 (73 of 215)
Disbeliever said:

So are Chord Electronics Ltd lying when they say their DAC technology makes CD sound better than SACD ?

Some call it lying, others marketing.

Post by Alexandre December 9, 2009 (74 of 215)
Disbeliever said:

So are Chord Electronics Ltd lying when they say their DAC technology makes CD sound better than SACD ?

It's called a vested interest.

Post by AudioMaster December 9, 2009 (75 of 215)
urbo73 said:
Also, Blu-ray is 1080p - which is still not enough to resolve all the detail in 35mm film. 35mm film!! DVD is 480p...an even bigger loss. Digital Intermediates (DIs) are scanned (horizontally) at 2K and more often 4K these days as masters are made. 1080p is close to 2K, but not quite. It is said that 35mm film probably maxes out around close to 4K. And that's 35mm. Let's not talk about 70mm and other formats... The point is that even today, I can't view the full resolution of a 35mm film say shot over 50 years ago! The same is definitely not true for audio. Analog tape can hold at most 80dB (if Dolby A is applied all the way), but most have around 60dB. CD's 96dB easily resolves this. I can keep going, but I think you see why the analogy doesn't work. Video is still behind in its ability to reproduce film. Audio is not. So yeah, I can listen to the Beatles remastered mono CDs and know I have all that's on the master tapes. I can't do the same with a Blu-ray of ANY 35mm film shot. The DI (if the scan even exists) has more info than I can play back. And even the DI if at 2K doesn't hold the full resolution of 35mm film. So you see, it's a whole different ballgame.

While BluRay is clearly better than plain DVD the statement above is not true.

The projection resolution of a typical 35mm motion picture print in theatres is around 700-800 vertical lines, less than 1080 pixels (note; not line pairs, but lines as in CRT TVs). 2K projectors now used in modern movie theatres create sharper image than a 35mm projector.

SMPTE study at: http://www.fixetdefix.fr/IMG/pdf/35mm_resolution_english.pdf

Comparing digital pictures and audio looking for analogies is next to worthless. Pictures can be enlarged to show more detail, audio can not be enlarged to reveal more "resolution". After a certain audio resolution limit has been achieved, it is worthless to strive for more (for delivery medium at least). There are loads of evidence supporting this, and even that the limit has been achieved already with RBCD.

Post by AudioMaster December 9, 2009 (76 of 215)
FullRangeMan said:

RedbookCD is just 44,1khz sampling rate, a very low resolution indeed, it have just 65000 sound steps level, DVD 24/192 is around 15 millions sound steps levels and DSD64/128 have a infinitely variable sounds steps.
Look below for a better visual of the same info:
> RedBookCD: 65.000 levels of intensity of sound (Low Resolution).
> DVD-Audio: Around 15 millions levels of intensity of sound(Mid Resolution??)
> DSD-64: Infinitely variable levels of intensity of sound.
> DSD-128: OH YESsss !!

Unbelievable.

you have not colored all the pages of your preschool audio coloring book, or you would know already that there are no steps in the signal put out by the DAC, be it sourced PCM or DSD.

Also 24 bit PCM gives 144 dB dynamic range (theoretically, usually limited by converters), DSD "only" 120 (also theoretical, worse in practice), plus has bad ultrasonic noise from heavyhanded noise shaping.

Post by Ear December 9, 2009 (77 of 215)
Now from which hole do they crawl all the time?
AudioMaster? Who is supposed to be impressed by that? You cannot enlarge audio to reveal more detail? Well if you say so 'AudioMaster'. Well I found a way and I hear the limit set by CD at a certain stage just as you see the pixels in bad pictures.

Post by AudioMaster December 9, 2009 (78 of 215)
Ear said:

You cannot enlarge audio to reveal more detail? Well if you say so 'AudioMaster'. Well I found a way and I hear the limit set by CD at a certain stage just as you see the pixels in bad pictures.

So, please elaborate.

Post by AudioMaster December 9, 2009 (79 of 215)
FullRangeMan said:
The resolution in all digitals formats are meter in Sampling Rate, and SACD sampling rate is 64 times more than CD, this said it all.

What this actually says is that you do not know or understand anything about digital sampling, and the basic difference between PCM and sigma-delta sampling used in DSD. Sigma-delta does not work at all without extremely high sampling rate, it is not a sign of quality.

DSD sampling rate is so low (yes, much too low for decent sigma-delta) that even 5000 Hz frequences start to struggle with bad S/N ratio, and at 10 kHz the dynamic range is worse than CD 16/44.1. This can only be overcome with drastic noise shaping pushing huge amounts of noise to 35+ kHz frequences. Just look at the published frequency graphs from DSD sources. PCM simply has clean reproduction up to half sample rate and 6.02 dB of dynamic range per bit, nothing else to it.

Post by audioholik December 9, 2009 (80 of 215)
AudioMaster said:

Unbelievable.

you have not colored all the pages of your preschool audio coloring book, or you would know already that there are no steps in the signal put out by the DAC, be it sourced PCM or DSD.

AudioMaster,

you have unfortunately missed the point of FullRangeMan's post - "there are no steps in the signal put out by the DAC" but the analog signal is recorded using quantization process, thus depending on the recording format resolution we can assign a specific number of steps/amplitude values to the analog signal. He's also right with the numbers.

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