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Discussion: Steely Dan: Aja

Posts: 152
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Post by Merganser July 8, 2010 (91 of 152)
terence said:

i have the bog-standard UK CD first issue and have always thought it disappointing. what i want to know is, is this new mastering significantly better? i.e. £50+ better?!

IMO, yes.

Along with Aja I also bought Layla and prefer it to the original SACD. In fact, I like these new SACD-SHM's so much that a placed another order for 461 Ocean Blvd., Fillmore East and Let It Bleed.

Post by sonnysin168 July 8, 2010 (92 of 152)
I'm planning to pre-order Dire Straits' self-titled debut album in SHM-SACD format.

Post by Kikke July 8, 2010 (93 of 152)
sonnysin168 said:

I'm planning to pre-order Dire Straits' self-titled debut album in SHM-SACD format.

I did.

Post by Kikke July 8, 2010 (94 of 152)
Merganser said:

As I couldn't say it better myself, I have quoted the following from someone who has heard the new Aja SACD-SHM. I believe it may explain why a few folks do not like it.

"Some people has over the years got so used to "CD-sound" and typical CD-remaster-sound with somewhat harshsness and strain in sound, that when then listening to something that has no artifacts at all, you think something is missing in sound.
Other people mix up distortion in sound with great dynamics in sound."

Amen to that.

Post by Kikke July 8, 2010 (95 of 152)
sordidman said:

That's a very easy and quite unfair dismissal.

Do you not think that it's insulting to say that "some people should have their ears checked?" Any reasonable person's first reaction would, and should be, to tell you to piss off. But, again, your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses.

These kinds of tests of "sounds better" are absolutely subjective anyway. So, - as stated: what other discs are being compared. And, are people flipping the polarity.

Have you compared yours to the Steely Dan Gaucho SACD, the SHM redbook version of Aja?
What is your SACD player? You also said that it is "smoother," - well, - that's a big minus, - and might just mean that you have a low quality player.

Not meant to insult any of you. Let me put it this way. An SACD will never be better than the master it was made from. I think we can agree upon that. 'Gaucho' has been a superior sounding album even when it first arrived. So for me there is no need to compare 'Aja' with 'Gaucho' again 30 years or so later. Just as I'm not comparing the all analogue 'Everything has to go' with the more harsh sounding 'Two against nature'. (both on DVD Audio). They were recorded differently and sound differently. I've spend way over €60000,00, both on equipment and after marked upgrades to improve the gear further, to get the music reproduction I want. I dear to say that music sounds as natural as can be achieved within the budget. I'm simply saying that this is a flawless 'Aja'...Without the harshness of the previous releases.

Post by rammiepie July 9, 2010 (96 of 152)
In addition to Who's Next, Aja and VU, I also pre~ordered Dire Straits, 10cc and Blind faith. Hoping this is part of a trend to release more treasures from the vaults and perhaps even some multi~channel SHM~SACD releases will be forthcoming....still waiting for some Blu~Spec SACDs from SONY and some HQ~SACDs from EMI........the Universal pre~orders for announced discs are extremely encouraging and should eventually be contagious to other labels.

Post by danfaz July 9, 2010 (97 of 152)
rammiepie said:

In addition to Who's Next, Aja and VU, I also pre~ordered Dire Straits, 10cc and Blind faith. Hoping this is part of a trend to release more treasures from the vaults and perhaps even some multi~channel SHM~SACD releases will be forthcoming...

I have Who's Next pre-ordered, as well. I, too, am hoping for more as I am pleased as punch with my first SHM SACD =)

Post by sordidman July 9, 2010 (98 of 152)
Kikke said:

An SACD will never be better than the master it was made from. I think we can agree upon that. 'Gaucho' has been a superior sounding album even when it first arrived. So for me there is no need to compare 'Aja' with 'Gaucho' again 30 years or so later. Just as I'm not comparing the all analogue 'Everything has to go' with the more harsh sounding 'Two against nature'. on equipment and after marked upgrades to improve the gear further, to get the music reproduction I want. I dear to say that music sounds as natural as can be achieved within the budget. I'm simply saying that this is a flawless 'Aja'...Without the harshness of the previous releases.

Thanks for the kind elucidation.

I agree with you: I just happen to think that the redbook SHM of Aja casts a wider soundstage, with instruments better located, is more dynamic in the volume between instruments, and the instruments, - (especially the drums), - have a more aggressive and real, "pop" to them. Especially on the song Aja, - the drums are cardboard sounding anyway, - so whatever adds dynamics, and separates the individual drums is better, - for me.

I say all of this because some of these things are system dependent, and subjective preferences, and because as both of us have said, recordings do not start out equal: we both know that Aja will NEVER sound as good as Gaucho.

Many of us have really good gear. Many are impressed with my system, (and it's a $35K retail system), - but that's not the point. It could very well be as simple as a polarity inversion in the SACD recording.

If I was the only one making these comments, - I'd really be going through some even more strident self-examination, - but several people agree with me.

Finally, - some systems are built into rooms, and preferences of people where they may sound a bit thin through the midrange, detailed, and a bit aggressive. (I really think that Mobile Fidelity masters their recordings on a thin, aggressive, maybe even bright system). Many Mobile Fidelity re-dos come out overly smooth, overly warm, chocolate sauce, dampened discs. If one plays these discs on a system that is already on the warm side, - these discs can sound downright muddy. Such is the case where the Pixies SACD sounds muddy. One can tell that the instruments are more lifelike, and the resolution is higher, - but the pacing of the music slows, the soundstage is closed in, and everything sounds too dark, - the sizzly and sibilant instruments, don't sound sizzly.
This is the case with many Mobile Fidelity redbook gold re-masters, - that by and large, - sound way too warm.

I would rather have a disc, - (like the Elton John SACDs), - that are maybe a bit brighter, - (the way they were recorded), - perhaps, and have the pacing of the music be right, and a big soundstage, - then have the instruments be "truer."

On the Aja SACD, the pacing is off, - as I hear it compared to the SHM redbook CD. And, - I'm anxious to hear what others have to say when they flip the polarity on this SACD.

Once you made your comments, I listened again, comparing the two discs. Yes indeed, the Aja SACD does sound smoother, the bass instruments sound more real, there is indeed, noticeably higher resolution there. But, again, - I would sacrifice, (every day, all day), higher resolution for soundstage and pacing. I would ask you to listen to the CD vs the SACD again and compare the soundstages and instrument separation and location specifically, - and let us know your thoughts.

BTW: what is your SACD player? I can't wait to give my Aja CDs to my friend who owns a Meitner. Meitner, (along with Audio Aero, Esoteric, Ayre, and APL), are some of the most notable players that are known for having great Redbook playback as well.

Thanks for your comments.... really appreciate what you have to say...and your take...

Post by sordidman July 9, 2010 (99 of 152)
Merganser said:

As I couldn't say it better myself, I have quoted the following from someone who has heard the new Aja SACD-SHM. I believe it may explain why a few folks do not like it.

"Some people has over the years got so used to "CD-sound"

That is a straw man....

With respect: SACDs AND redbook CDs both vary widely in sound quality. I listen to SACDs almost as much as redbook CD: and with the new, increased quality, (sometimes better than SACD), in both the playback equipment and recording to disc; that old adage of "all redbook is harsh and sucks," doesn't hold water.

How would you explain the great disparity in SACDs alone?

Those aren't the only two choices available, and as experiences pile up, - most people think otherwise.....

Recordings are not created equal
redbook CDs are not equal
Players are not equal
associated playback equipment is not equal.

There are many crappy recordings, many good ones. There are crappy redbook CD implementations, - (see early '80s discs when the VINYL EQ settings were used for the glass master discs), - some SACD players really, really, suck for redbook playback. And finally, some speakers, amps, etc may not be "right."

If you are someone who believes that all of their SACDs more or less have the same sound quality, - then i would say that there's a big problem somewhere. Again, my Peter Gabriel SACDs, vs my Dead Can Dance SACDs, vs my Elton John SACDs, vs my Pixies SACDs, vs some of my Jazz SACDs, vary; and some vary widely in sound quality.

Post by Merganser July 10, 2010 (100 of 152)
sordidman said:

That is a straw man....

With respect: SACDs AND redbook CDs both vary widely in sound quality. I listen to SACDs almost as much as redbook CD: and with the new, increased quality, (sometimes better than SACD), in both the playback equipment and recording to disc; that old adage of "all redbook is harsh and sucks," doesn't hold water.

How would you explain the great disparity in SACDs alone?

Those aren't the only two choices available, and as experiences pile up, - most people think otherwise.....

Recordings are not created equal
redbook CDs are not equal
Players are not equal
associated playback equipment is not equal.

Please note, I said it MAY explain why SOME people, not all people. In other words, it was simply speculation with some solid reasoning behind it.

With respect in return, I don't need a lecture on the sound quality or lack thereof concerning in the various formats or equipment available today. I've been in this hobby a very long time.






"I'm anxious to hear what others have to say when they flip the polarity on this SACD."

I'm sure you meant phase, not polarity.

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