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Discussion: Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 1 & 3 - Herreweghe

Posts: 10

Post by MeerNichtBach November 18, 2010 (1 of 10)
This appears to be another Pentatone disc which is mislabeled on their site (and consequently here) as an original DSD recording. Based on spectrographic analysis it is a 44.1 or 48 khz PCM recording. The image below is a sweep from about the first 30 seconds of Track 1. The readout in the bottom right is caused by placing the mouse cursor (not visible in the Windows Alt-Prt-Scrn) at the top of the wave form. The sampling rate of the audio capture is 88.2 khz.

I asked about this in the Pentatone thread about a week and a half ago but have not seen a reply:

/showthread/6697/61469/y#61469

Incidentally Pentatone's site still labels the Albrecht/Dukas-Ravel disc as 'DSD recorded' even though they have stated here that it is not. I have not analyzed any of the other Herreweghe Beethoven discs as I was hoping that Pentatone would simply answer my question in the other thread but I suspect that they are all 44 or 48 k resolution PCM as I believe they were all recorded by the same personnel.

It would be nice if Pentatone would correctly label the recordings on their web site. We can all argue over the sonic value of original DSD or greater than 4X khz PCM recording but I'm assuming they find sales value in attaching the 'DSD' label to non-RQR recordings on their site. Under that assumption I, for one, would appreciate that labeling being truthful in each case. I didn't make a big deal about this and asked about it (I believe) politely in the other Pentatone thread but felt the need to highlight it here after it was ignored there.

It is disappointing to purchase discs that are labeled as DSD recordings and then to find upon analysis that they are not. This will affect my purchasing decision on many recently released and future non-RQR Pentatone discs.

Post by Ernani71 November 18, 2010 (2 of 10)
MeerNichtBach said:

This appears to be another Pentatone disc which is mislabeled on their site (and consequently here) as an original DSD recording.

Incidentally Pentatone's site still labels the Albrecht/Dukas-Ravel disc as 'DSD recorded' even though they have stated here that it is not.

If your analysis is correct, this is becoming a pattern with Pentatone. Most disturbing is the fact that they haven't corrected the information for the Albrecht/Dukas-Ravel disc on their website after admitting their mistake. If they don't correct it soon, I will begin having doubts about the label's veracity.

Post by krisjan November 18, 2010 (3 of 10)
I think this numbers kerfuffle is great! Now we can find out how many Pentatone SACD's that Theresa has waxed rhapsodic about that turn out to be based on 44 kHz pcm sampling rates instead of "pure DSD". Don't you just LOVE the Emperor's new clothes?

Post by MeerNichtBach November 18, 2010 (4 of 10)
krisjan said:

I think this numbers kerfuffle is great! Now we can find out how many Pentatone SACD's that Theresa has waxed rhapsodic about that turn out to be based on 44 kHz pcm sampling rates instead of "pure DSD". Don't you just LOVE the Emperor's new clothes?

I couldn't care less about that or any of the infighting that has occurred in this forum over the years. Though I have only recently registered to post I've visited the site since the day Stephen first mentioned it on AA's SACD board. I have no interest in changing anyone's mind regarding DSD or high resolution PCM recording one way or the other and have no wish to discuss it. My main reason for pursuing SACD 11 years ago was obtaining higher than CD resolution recordings. I have no interest in surround and have numerous recordings at CD resolution of just about everything in the repertory including the recognized reference conductors of most works. High resolution recordings are primarily why I pay for SACD's, other folks choices are up to them and I'm not interested in changing their minds nor arguing about it. It's not a 'numbers kerfuffle' to me, it happens to carry some importance. If it's not important to you, no problem with me.

I also realize that many record labels don't overtly state the resolution at which their SACD's are recorded. In those cases one takes some measure of risk in making the purchase if resolution happens to be of importance. Pentatone does overtly claim 'DSD recorded' for every one of their non-RQR recordings and, in doing so, they should be truthful about it. That's all I'm asking.

Post by stvnharr November 18, 2010 (5 of 10)
MeerNichtBach said:

Pentatone does overtly claim 'DSD recorded' for every one of their non-RQR recordings and, in doing so, they should be truthful about it. That's all I'm asking.

Most of Pentatone's "new" recordings are done by Polyhymnia Recording. These are going to be DSD recorded. However, lately Pentatone has been using other recording teams for some of the new recordings. And I think it is these recordings that may not be done DSD.

Post by MeerNichtBach November 18, 2010 (6 of 10)
stvnharr said:

Most of Pentatone's "new" recordings are done by Polyhymnia Recording. These are going to be DSD recorded. However, lately Pentatone has been using other recording teams for some of the new recordings. And I think it is these recordings that may not be done DSD.

I'm aware of that but it's not my problem to sort it out. They're are the ones who are in a position to know which are DSD sourced and which are not or find out from the people who are recording them. If they choose not to state what the recording provenance of the non-Polyhymnia recordings are that would be their prerogative but their website currently shows that every non 'RQR' recording that they produce is 'DSD recorded.'

Not that it matters for the purposes of this particular discussion but I also personally place importance on whether a recoding is higher than 4X khz PCM so it's not simply a matter to me of whether something is 'DSD' sourced or not. I would simply like to know one way or the other or, at the very least, not be told something is a DSD sourced recording when it is not.

Post by DSD November 18, 2010 (7 of 10)
Mark I would say that would be ZERO that are on my Recommended list. I have purchased 14 PentaTone DSD SACDs and 4 analog SACDs, and was only disappointed with the sonics of a couple, those could be of lower resolution or were compromised in some other way.

Well recorded DSD sounds different than PCM, all one has to do is listen to Telarc Sampler No. 1 to hear analog, 24 Bit 44.1kHz and DSD recordings from the same company. Here is my review /showreviews/439#6537

There is a different sonic flavor to DSD. BTW poor recording techniques and or hall acoustics can make DSD sound as bad as PCM.

Post by Ernani71 November 18, 2010 (8 of 10)
Theresa, while I often disagree with your taste in music, I'm impressed with your ability to hear the subtle difference between DSD and PCM, and among the various resolutions. I think you called out the Dukas disc before Pentatone even admitted to it (or if not the Dukas at least others in the past). I'm not sure I could tell the difference.

Post by DSD November 18, 2010 (9 of 10)
Ernani71 I have never heard the PentaTone Dukas SACD as I have two of the three works on PURE DSD Telarc SACDs that I find superb both musically and sonically. The third work by Koechlin I was not impressed musically with the sound samples on the internet.

Post by canonical November 18, 2010 (10 of 10)
MeerNichtBach said:

My main reason for pursuing SACD 11 years ago was obtaining higher than CD resolution recordings. I have no interest in surround and have numerous recordings at CD resolution of just about everything in the repertory including the recognized reference conductors of most works. High resolution recordings are primarily why I pay for SACD's, other folks choices are up to them and I'm not interested in changing their minds nor arguing about it. It's not a 'numbers kerfuffle' to me, it happens to carry some importance. If it's not important to you, no problem with me.

I also realize that many record labels don't overtly state the resolution at which their SACD's are recorded. In those cases one takes some measure of risk in making the purchase if resolution happens to be of importance. Pentatone does overtly claim 'DSD recorded' for every one of their non-RQR recordings and, in doing so, they should be truthful about it. That's all I'm asking.

What he said.

Closed