Thread: What is the best multichannel SACD player????

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Post by electro April 21, 2011 (1 of 399)
I have quite an investment in SACD's and listen mostly to classical discs in surround. Just listening to Pentatone Bartok/Koday/ligeti - Conductor Lawrence Foster

I currently have a Sony 9000ES, which has the most important feature of ANY multi-channel system - the ability to time delay channels according to distance from the listener. After all - how many listening rooms can be set up with every speaker exactly the same distance from the listener!

Sadly many players (such as the Linn machines) don't have this facility at all, and many that do convert the DSD to PCM (yuk!) in order to enable this critical facility.

High end players tend to be stereo only eg. DCS, Krell etc. This is because audiophiles tend to be conservative (I've only got two ears) types.

SACD in surround is SO much better than stereo with the right material - classical concerts being a great example, more realistic soundstage, depth etc. I've tried this comparison with non audiophiles and they laugh at how much better the surround sounds - oh and I have Quad 2905's as my front speakers!

Esoteric seem to make "universal players" that don't play Blu-ray! - Duh! And Linn have given up the game now their Unidisk has been made obsolete - I imagine they couldn't justify the cost of building a "silver disk engine" for Blu-Ray.

The Sony is a 2004 machine (but an excellent one - Stereophile A1 rated since launch) so has anyone tested the Marantz UD9004 or the Denon DVD A1UD for example, or is there an amazing surround machine that I have missed?

Post by Nagraboy April 21, 2011 (2 of 399)
Any channel-delay processing necessitates converting the DSD to PCM. Even your 9000ES does this. Also the 9000ES in fact always converts DSD to PCM in the DAC chip - it's just the way the DACs work, sadly.

If you want pure DSD surround-sound I believe you must use the EMM/Meitner gear or Playback Designs gear (no UK importer), and find a room which allows optimum placement of the speakers, which is tricky as you say.

If you're not bothered about purist DSD, you could use an Oppo universal through HDMI into a decent pre/pro for a good value setup...you could even use EQ, but we won't go there!

I used to own the Sony 9000ES and the Denon DBP4010UD and heard the Marantz UD9004 at a show demo with Ken Ishiwata from Marantz. They are all good in their own ways but also have their faults too. The Denon was too noisy for me so I took it back to the dealers. The upscale DVDA1-UD was a little quieter but much more expensive. In fairness to Denon though, I do sit rather close to my electronics so it may be irrelevant to many listeners.

Esoteric's line is that they are waiting to see if Blu-Ray 'takes off' before investing a lot of time and money in it. Or maybe they are worried about being shown-up by an Oppo-clone for video performance. Personally I couldn't care less about video quality - music is paramount for me. Good luck!

Post by Disbeliever April 21, 2011 (3 of 399)
Nagraboy said:

Any channel-delay processing necessitates converting the DSD to PCM. Even your 9000ES does this. Also the 9000ES in fact always converts DSD to PCM in the DAC chip - it's just the way the DACs work, sadly.



I used to own the Sony 9000ES and the Denon DBP4010UD and heard the Marantz UD9004 at a show demo with Ken Ishiwata from Marantz. They are all good in their own ways but also have their faults too.so I took it back to the fairness Esoteric's line is that they are waiting to see if Blu-Ray 'takes off' before investing a lot of time and money in it. Or maybe they are worried about being shown-up by an Oppo-clone for video performance. Personally I couldn't care less about video quality - music is paramount for me. Good luck!

You should have mentioned the problems you had with the 9000ES

Post by Bayside Bomber April 21, 2011 (4 of 399)
The Marantz UD-9004 in "source direct" mode directly converts DSD to analog bypassing PCM conversion. The Marantz claims to allow channel delay and levels in source direct mode and I believe it because I do it. And I also hear the dramatic difference when I take it out of source direct mode.

Post by Kal Rubinson April 21, 2011 (5 of 399)
Bayside Bomber said:

The Marantz UD-9004 in "source direct" mode directly converts DSD to analog bypassing PCM conversion. The Marantz claims to allow channel delay and levels in source direct mode and I believe it because I do it. And I also hear the dramatic difference when I take it out of source direct mode.

If they can do that, they should be able to do it for DSD output via HDMI. Color me skeptical.

Kal

Post by electro April 21, 2011 (6 of 399)
Nagraboy said:

Any channel-delay processing necessitates converting the DSD to PCM. Even your 9000ES does this. Also the 9000ES in fact always converts DSD to PCM in the DAC chip - it's just the way the DACs work, sadly.

This is incorrect, the Sony DOES NOT convert to PCM for ANY of it's SACD playback facilities, a full technical explanation of how it does this can be found here;

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=13116&PageId=3

This is why I bought this machine in the first place!


This is the point of my question, is the Sony the ONLY player to achieve this in the DSD domain

Bayside Bomber - It seems that Marantz have now achieved this too with the UD9004, thanks for that I will investigate further and try to get a home demo!

Incidentally my Sony has "touch wood" been problem free, unlike the Musical Fidelity units owned by my friends!

Cheers for the responses and happy listening!

Post by Nagraboy April 21, 2011 (7 of 399)
Bayside Bomber said:

The Marantz UD-9004 in "source direct" mode directly converts DSD to analog bypassing PCM conversion. The Marantz claims to allow channel delay and levels in source direct mode and I believe it because I do it. And I also hear the dramatic difference when I take it out of source direct mode.

With respect, hearing a difference using a source direct mode does not mean you are hearing DSD rather than PCM. It just means you are hearing a difference. Source direct modes often have several advantages for example disabling video circuitry or digital output sockets. These factors can result in audible improvements.

Many manufacturers say "direct conversion from DSD to Analog without PCM stage". It then turns out that when pressed on the issue they admit that whilst there is no DSD to 24bit PCM stage prior to the data entering the DAC, within the DAC chip the DSD is converted to a low bit (eg 5bit) PCM format ready for conversion to Analog.

You may well be adjusting delay and level in source direct mode, but the processing will certainly be in PCM. This is a very well known fact here. I wish we could process DSD natively in our players, but it seems we can't.

Post by Nagraboy April 21, 2011 (8 of 399)
electro...

Pure DSD to Analogue conversion was also a big reason why I bought the 9000ES, in fact I've just re-read the Hi-Fi News review (March 2004) and from reading Paul Miller's review and your provided link, it does appear that you could be right. To quote Paul Miller:

"If the subjective virtues of SACD are inextricably linked to its DSD bitstream then this probably explains why no DVD-A player has ever quite achieved...realism of the best single-media SACD/CD players...one thing that distinguished the first SACD players from Sony (and Marantz for that matter) was the use of true one-bit DACs, unlike DVD-A/universal players which typically used 3-5 bit 'Delta Sigma' convertors. These DACs may offer compatibility with DSD data but, within the silicon, is converted to a shade of PCM. At this point, SACD is no longer SACD. By this benchmark, Sony's SCD-XA3000ES and SCD-XA9000ES possibly represent the last bastion of SACD audio as it was originally intended."

Sounds convincing enough to me...

I believed the 9000ES was a pure DSD to Analogue design because of this review until I was repeatedly told that it does not, cannot happen anymore - on this forum. Also Paul Miller said the same in one of Disbeliever's letters mentioned in another post today. That really did confuse things.

Did you notice PM mentioned the (cheaper) 3000ES? So there's another player for you! Although it too is not made anymore.

The Marantz UD9004 that has been mentioned uses the AKM 32bit DACs which are also used by Denon for the DVDA1-UD (they are very similar machines in many ways). Also, as I mentioned on another thread, Esoteric use these too. The new K-01 and K-03 use the AKM4399 and the SA50 uses AKM4397 as do other models.

It is claimed that these Esoteric players ARE pure DSD to Analogue machines on their website. I really hope they are, but it is always hard to get the real facts from manufacturers. It seems to me that AKM DACs will do the job, but for so long it has not been available as an option.

If 2 channel stereo is sufficient for anyone, these DACs are also used in Denon's DCD2010AE and DCD1510AE SACD players. On the disc-tray it says Advanced AL32 Processing and research has shown that they carry the said chips.

Funnily enough, Marantz' 2 channel players do not use the AKM chips...

Post by The Seventh Taylor April 21, 2011 (9 of 399)
electro said:

I currently have a Sony 9000ES

That's an ambiguous statement. You mean a DVP-S9000ES or an SCD-XA9000ES? Or even an STR-DA9000ES, for that matter?

Post by Kal Rubinson April 21, 2011 (10 of 399)
The Seventh Taylor said:

That's an ambiguous statement. You mean a DVP-S9000ES or an SCD-XA9000ES? Or even an STR-DA9000ES, for that matter?

Or, as I have, an XA-P9000ES!

Kal

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