Thread: More 5.1 DOORS from Analogue Productions

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Post by audioholik October 4, 2012 (41 of 50)
hooperthom said:

I thought you meant that it was only a 2 channel release.

I meant that all their work involved only remastering of 2 channels of audio.

Post by rammiepie October 4, 2012 (42 of 50)
There was talk that the two upcoming Cat Stevens titles were multichannel based on the original QUAD mastertapes.

Can Michi confirm if this is true or not?

As for the Door's remasters.........I'll stick with the DVD~A Perception box set.

Post by michi October 4, 2012 (43 of 50)
Espen R said:

michi, I think you have to explain a couple of things to me.

1) Does things all the time happens behind the scenes in this business, because all AP SACD releases get pushed (several times)?

2) And if not the usual "pressing plant story" that cause the delays, then it's the story of..."using all the time needed to get it sound right" And people must understand this. Right??
But hello...this is only mastering done 1000 times before. You got the analogue tape, you play back the tape, use some EQ and pass it into the DSD converter, and then some editing in the Sonoma system...how difficult can that be??

There is so much "hidden" things here, all these things that some people "know", but can't talk about...very strange business!

First of all, as Polarius noted: I don't work for AP, I'm involved with the SA Center, where the SACDs are structured and 'authored' when it's time to produce them. Other companies like Sterling Sound are involved in the actual mastering.

This isn't a "another pressing plant" story. Yes, it's mastering done 1000 times before but to be completely honest, many of the 'times before' were not geared towards an audiophile audience. (Really.) Often, the tapes were a whole lot newer then, too. The "chain" you describe above isn't as automated and turn-key as you might think. As I said, it starts out as analog of course, and there are a lot of variables there. I know of analog transfers that have had undesirable artifacts imparted on them due to a lightning storm happening locally. Humidity. Static electricity. Temperature. There are a lot of variables on the analog end. It requires a lot of QC along the way, and sometimes something doesn't sound quite right at a certain stage. And when it doesn't sound quite right, sometimes the process has to be backed up a few steps and redone to sound as great as it can. (This isn't marketing speak; I'm technical, I really couldn't give a flying whatever about marketing.)

I have no idea why the secrecy is what it is, but as I've said in my past posts I can't really usurp that decision for the folks who want to keep a lid on it. It's not up to me, it's up to them, and I can't override that just because I have knowledge of a situation. I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that there's a whole lot of cooperation and handoff between different entities that want to make sure their reputation is preserved here. Beyond AP, there are a lot of hands in the pot. If something ever were to go wrong, nobody wants finger pointing to start. (I guess.) Basically, it's not one unified company doing it, and a lot of the decisions on what to reveal are "way above my pay grade".

All I can say, (and yes, I wish I could just explain it all outright) - is that many of the recent delays in SACD production were absolutely due to making sure the sound was right, or, taking a few steps back because near the end of the process something did not sound right and the reason for that had to be found. Yeah, it's perfectionism. Sometimes the feedback comes from us at the SA Center during authoring and prepping the discs for pressing. Other times audio issues are found earlier in the chain. It's a question of, "Do you want it quick, or good?"

Keep in mind, this can be something as simple as -one pop or tick- in the recording, that happened during the analog transfer, for whatever reason. But imagine you're listening to one of your favorite songs and there's this barely audible, but just audible *enough* to annoy little 'tick' during a certain quiet passage. And you can't get rid of it, because it was on the transfer. I know that'd bother me. To some, they may not care. But if folks involved in the chain CAN get rid of such a thing, they will. (And I am not saying the Doors release was pushed back because of a single tick - I'm saying this hypothetically, as an example as to what CAN happen.)

These masters and transfers are listened to METICULOUSLY before going out. I do know AP is not going to let something out that sounds questionable.

I have to ask though, wouldn't you *rather* those involved spot the little things, and do it right, than press a button and walk away and ship whatever ends up transferred? These titles will come, and trust me there are a number of ones that i'm waiting on myself...

Beyond that, I really have scaled back what i'm saying on SA-CD.net lately -- please don't shoot the messenger. I'm just trying to convey some understanding.

Post by michi October 4, 2012 (44 of 50)
rammiepie said:

There was talk that the two upcoming Cat Stevens titles were multichannel based on the original QUAD mastertapes.

Can Michi confirm if this is true or not?

As for the Door's remasters.........I'll stick with the DVD~A Perception box set.

Rammie, I'm checking into this now - i'll let you know if I can;

That said, how is your Perception box set holding up? A bunch of the Warner DVD-A discs have 'rotted' over time, not visibly, but rendering them unplayable after a certain point in the track listing. It's a real problem and actually my biggest motivator -for- having them on SACD. (I hope AP licenses the REM discs, too, because all of my Warner ones are unplayable now.)

It'd be interesting to hear if yours are still solid and playable...

Post by rammiepie October 4, 2012 (45 of 50)
michi said:

Rammie, I'm checking into this now - i'll let you know if I can;

That said, how is your Perception box set holding up? A bunch of the Warner DVD-A discs have 'rotted' over time, not visibly, but rendering them unplayable after a certain point in the track listing. It's a real problem and actually my biggest motivator -for- having them on SACD. (I hope AP licenses the REM discs, too, because all of my Warner ones are unplayable now.)

It'd be interesting to hear if yours are still solid and playable...

Michi, first of all, thank you for your very sane explanation of why delays in SACD production do occur and why they occur...........I really don't believe many of us on this site fully understood the rather complex nature of transferring analogue master tapes to DSD then to the final product. Of course many of us wouldn't stand for imperfection especially when we've waited so long for the final product.

As for my Doors Perception box.......was playing them quite recently and they sound fantastic on my Meridian 800 both in stereo and mch. May be due to the fact that they are stored in my finished basement which is dehumidified in the summer months.

I'm quite sure storage has a lot to do with preservation of those 5" discs....perhaps the high altitude in Colorado has a lot to do with their instability but I'm not a scientist.

Meantime, if you're an Emerson, Lake and Palmer fan, Steve Wilson's recent DVD~A remasters are a revelation. It's akin to hearing these albums for the very first time. That's why I'm an advocate of multichannel........it tends to extract details obscured in the stereo mix.

BTW, regarding the Cat Stevens' SACD releases, AP ran into a glitch and has indefinitely cancelled both upcoming releases due to a change in management at Cat Stevens' productions.

Maybe they'll have Steve Wilson remix them into 5.1 surround (VERY wishful thinking) since the originals were done in 4.0 QUAD! (Catch the Bull At Four and Teaser And The Firecat)

Post by kaalkop October 4, 2012 (46 of 50)
michi said:

Rammie, I'm checking into this now - i'll let you know if I can;

That said, how is your Perception box set holding up? A bunch of the Warner DVD-A discs have 'rotted' over time, not visibly, but rendering them unplayable after a certain point in the track listing. It's a real problem and actually my biggest motivator -for- having them on SACD. (I hope AP licenses the REM discs, too, because all of my Warner ones are unplayable now.)

It'd be interesting to hear if yours are still solid and playable...

Did you ever have the same problem with any discs NOT being housed in a digipak?
Are you sure the problem is not visible?

Post by rammiepie October 4, 2012 (47 of 50)
kaalkop said:

Did you ever have the same problem with any discs NOT being housed in a digipak?
Are you sure the problem is not visible?

SACDs and of course DVD~As are DVD based materials and besides a few later Warner Brothers Titles, most DVD~As from Warners were packaged in Super Jewel Boxes (The DVD~A type).

Michi lives in a high altitude climate and unless one lives in a year round climate controlled environment, perhaps the altitude has something to do with cd or laser rot.

Although I've gone the blu~ray route, I find myself playing a lot of older DVDs (some from the 90's) without any problem with laser rot etc........which is why I'm making the case that SACD and DVD~As utilize the same basic DVD materials.

Does the digipak play a role in laser rot............any scientists or great guessers out there?

Michi, have you tried playing those discs on another DVD~A capable player. Sometimes the lasers become misaligned or dirty and erratically play or don't play certain discs. I've had that problem with some of my players....I even had my Meridian 800 overhauled with a new transport and upgraded power supply.

Post by michi October 6, 2012 (48 of 50)
rammiepie said:

SACDs and of course DVD~As are DVD based materials and besides a few later Warner Brothers Titles, most DVD~As from Warners were packaged in Super Jewel Boxes (The DVD~A type).

Michi lives in a high altitude climate and unless one lives in a year round climate controlled environment, perhaps the altitude has something to do with cd or laser rot.

Although I've gone the blu~ray route, I find myself playing a lot of older DVDs (some from the 90's) without any problem with laser rot etc........which is why I'm making the case that SACD and DVD~As utilize the same basic DVD materials.

Does the digipak play a role in laser rot............any scientists or great guessers out there?

Michi, have you tried playing those discs on another DVD~A capable player. Sometimes the lasers become misaligned or dirty and erratically play or don't play certain discs. I've had that problem with some of my players....I even had my Meridian 800 overhauled with a new transport and upgraded power supply.

Yeah, unfortunately. I have a lot of players, and none of them would read past the same points on each disc.

I've got a friend with the same problem who's in Virginia, and the climate there is quite different from here, so I was guessing climate at first (dry rot or humidity) - but now I'm thinking just a "bad batch" - or very possibly, we get very quick and varied temperature fluctuations here, so it could be related to that, maybe. There have been some other sporadic reports of it on the internet, too. I also know that Gus's copy that we have at the SA Center (arguably better climate-controlled than the 'box-set shelves' I have in my bedroom) still plays fine, as well. I need to spend some time examining the little numbers on the hub, between his set and mine.

After some more research though, it seems to have something to do with the glue between the layers, only happens on dual-layer Warner DVD-As (of which ALL of the Doors discs are; only about half of the REM ones are, and the single-layer ones still play fine) ... and sometimes it is visible, as sort of 'lines and blobs' on the disc where it appears that the layers might be separating. Other times you can't see a thing, though.

From what I understand, though, Warner had these pressed at two different plants. I probably just won the bad-disc lotto which also may even just be confined to a few bad batches at that plant.

...Writing to every address I could at Warner got me nothing but pin drops though. (Not even a courtesy reply.)

So for that I do say, bring on the SACDs, at least for me...

Post by michi October 6, 2012 (49 of 50)
kaalkop said:

Did you ever have the same problem with any discs NOT being housed in a digipak?
Are you sure the problem is not visible?

Come to think of it, no, all of the problems I have had have been discs housed in digipaks. The problem is sometimes visible, but for example on my DVD-A of "REM - Monster" you can't see a *thing* wrong with it, but it stops at 1:07 on track 4, no matter what, no matter what player, and will not play any tracks past that.

So something is definitely going on. As I mentioned it's ONLY Warner dual-layer DVD-A discs. I know of at least one other person with the same problem, across the country. To replace that particular REM one I ordered a used copy pressed in Europe. It's been fine. So the European pressings don't seem to be affected.

Post by rammiepie October 7, 2012 (50 of 50)
michi said:

Come to think of it, no, all of the problems I have had have been discs housed in digipaks. The problem is sometimes visible, but for example on my DVD-A of "REM - Monster" you can't see a *thing* wrong with it, but it stops at 1:07 on track 4, no matter what, no matter what player, and will not play any tracks past that.

So something is definitely going on. As I mentioned it's ONLY Warner dual-layer DVD-A discs. I know of at least one other person with the same problem, across the country. To replace that particular REM one I ordered a used copy pressed in Europe. It's been fine. So the European pressings don't seem to be affected.

Michi, played my American pressed DVD~A of Monster tonight. Sounded awesome.......forgot what a great album it really is and the soundstaging and surrounds are perfection.

Ashame that some of these discs are showing signs of deterioration.

Amost Perfect Sound.....but not forever!

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