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Discussion: Brahms: Violin Sonata No. 1, Horn Trio - Trio Grumiaux

Posts: 12
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Post by tream August 23, 2005 (1 of 12)
I recently purchased this disc, almost on a whim, and have been listening to it over the past few nights. I'll go on record and state that Brahms does not occupy a place anywhere near the center of my pantheon of great composers. On my shelves are a handful of Brahms works- the symphonies and overtures, the German Requiem, the concertos, the Hungarian Dances, and 3 chamber recordings - this one, the Piano Quintet, and the clarinet works on Opus 3. It took me a very long time to even go that far - when I first studied the music of Brahms (Symphonies 1 and 2, and concerto 1), I had an active revulsion for the music - the thick textures, the melodic turgidness, the inability to compose truly fast music, his indifferent orchestration, and so on.

The symphonies were opened up to me by the early Abbado recordings on DG - where each symphony was recorded with a different orchestra (if memory serves, 1 with the LSO, 2 with the Berlin Phil, 3 with Dresden, and 4 with the VPO. I have not had these LPs now for many years, unfortunately) For some reason Abbado was able to bring a clarity of line that brought the works into focus for me, even including the dreaded 3rd movement of the 3rd. I'm still not likely to pull out a Brahms work when I'm choosing something to listen to, although at this stage I consider the 4th Symphony to be a masterpiece by any standard. (I was hoping that the Haitink 4th on LSO Live would be a killer recording, alas, not.)

However, listening to the Violin Sonata is an interesting experience. The same thick textures that are found in the symphonic works are in evidence but they seem much less oppressive and even appropriate on this smaller scale. One could go on and on about the autumnal feeling of the music and whether Brahms was a conservative or a revolutionary. I'm wondering if Brahms true genius lies in chamber music - I also think the piano quintet is an outstanding work. Any thoughts on this? And, more to the point of this forum, any recommended Brahms chamber SACD's?

I do recommend this particular SACD. Well recorded, and Grumiaux was a terrific violinist.

Post by Ken_P August 23, 2005 (2 of 12)
Although our opinions on Brahms differ greatly (in my personal pantheon, he's second only to Beethoven), you are correct in that many of his greatest works are to be found in the chamber music. You've already discovered the piano quintet and clarinet works. The piano quartets are excellent also, particularly the C minor Op. 60. The works for strings are my personal favorites. There are two early sextets which were very much influenced by Schubert (the string quintet specifically), but are excellent examples of Brahms early maturity. The three string quartets I feel are a bit underrated, especially the Beethovenian first (Op. 51 No. 1) and the third (Op. 67), which does things with rhythm and meter that are truly unique. Finally, there are the string quintets, with an extra viola as in Mozart, as opposed to Schubert's extra cello. These are some of his final works, which are very complex, but also highly rewarding.

Sadly, I'm not aware of any these pieces being available on SACD at the moment. I'd really like to hear that I'm mistaken.

Post by brenda August 23, 2005 (3 of 12)
tream said: I'm wondering if Brahms true genius lies in chamber music. Any thoughts on this? And, more to the point of this forum, any recommended Brahms chamber SACD's?
dear tom, like Ken, I don't share your views on the orchestral music, which I love, but am glad the chamber music is gradually winning you over. Some good SACDs out there, - one nucaleena lent me of the Clarinet Quintet and Trio on opus3 is especially lovely, and a pure DSD m/c recording to boot. There are a couple of SACDs of the three violin sonatas and a couple of the cello sonatas too, - I have enjoyed the Praga disc of the violin tho' I'm sure the Fone is good too. The Avie disc of the cello s's, with wick and pascal devoyon is fine as a set of performances, though I wouldn't rave about the recording. There's a very nice (DSD) recording of the 1st piano sonata on Lyrinx. If you have DVD-A capability then I'd also recommend the Leipzig Quartet playing one of the three quartets and one of the two sextets. They might not necessarily be my first choice performances (try the Raphael on hyperion RBCD for that extra special something in the sextets) but they're still eminently listenable, and in warm 24/96. Maybe after all that, we'll convert you, and if we fail, then Gilels in the Piano Concertos (on DG) will surely succeed.

Post by brenda August 23, 2005 (4 of 12)
tream said: I'm wondering if Brahms true genius lies in chamber music. Any thoughts on this? And, more to the point of this forum, any recommended Brahms chamber SACD's?
dear tom, like Ken, I don't share your views on the orchestral music, which I love, but am glad the chamber music is gradually winning you over. Some good SACDs out there, - one nucaleena lent me of the Clarinet Quintet and Trio on opus3 is especially lovely, and a pure DSD m/c recording to boot. There are a couple of SACDs of the three violin sonatas and a couple of the cello sonatas too, - I have enjoyed the Praga disc of the violin tho' I'm sure the Fone is good too. The Avie disc of the cello s's, with wick and pascal devoyon is fine as a set of performances, though I wouldn't rave about the recording. There's a very nice (DSD) recording of the 1st piano sonata on Lyrinx. If you have DVD-A capability then I'd also recommend the Leipzig Quartet playing one of the three quartets and one of the two sextets. They might not necessarily be my first choice performances (try the Raphael on hyperion RBCD for that extra special something in the sextets) but they're still eminently listenable, and in warm 24/96. Maybe after all that, we'll convert you, and if we fail, then Gilels in the Piano Concertos (on DG) will surely succeed.

Post by akiralx August 23, 2005 (5 of 12)
brenda said:

The Avie disc of the cello s's, with wick and pascal devoyon is fine as a set of performances, though I wouldn't rave about the recording.

I was trying to choose between the 2 SACDs of the cello sonatas, could you post a review or comments about the Avie?

Thanks

Alex

Post by seth August 23, 2005 (6 of 12)
tream said:

However, listening to the Violin Sonata is an interesting experience. The same thick textures that are found in the symphonic works are in evidence but they seem much less oppressive and even appropriate on this smaller scale.

re: thick textures

I agree that this can be problematic with the Symphonies, but it's mostly a product of conductors and massive string sections. Check out Mackerras' semi-HIP recording of the Symphonies on Telarc. He uses a small chamber orchestra (like 50 musicians), period brass, little vibrato, and divided strings. The leaner sound makes it much easier to engage the music; the small vibratoless strings allow the brass and wind to come through much clearer.

Also look into Mackerras' recording of the Serenades. You'll probably prefer Brahms' more economic orchestration here compared to the symphonies.

As you and other people noted, there's lots of great chamber music that in many ways greatly differs from the symphonies. The popular g-minor piano quartet belongs in everyone's collection; schoenberg's orchestral arrangment of it is also excellent. The cello sonatas and sextets are equally as good. There is also tons of solo piano music ranging from the Handel variations to small rhapsodies and waltzes.

Post by seth August 23, 2005 (7 of 12)
tream said:

I'm wondering if Brahms true genius lies in chamber music - I also think the piano quintet is an outstanding work.

I find this to be true of many conductors. As good as Beethoven's symphonies are, the string quartets and piano sonatas as complete bodies of work have no rival. The same is true with Mendelssohn. Despite how outstandingly brilliant AMSND is, the Octet surpasses it.

EDIT: oops on the conductor/composer

Post by viktor August 23, 2005 (8 of 12)
seth said:

I find this to be true of many conductors. As good as Beethoven's symphonies are, the string quartets and piano sonatas as complete bodies of work have no rival. The same is true with Mendelssohn. Despite how outstandingly brilliant AMSND is, the Octet surpasses it.

Conductors? Cheers. Beethoven and Mendelssohn - how can you compare these two? Does the Octet surpass the Scottish symphony? Not in my book. Why compare the symphonies with the quartets? The operas with the oratorios? The sonatas with the suites? The songs with the romances? Is Beethoven a better conductor, sorry..composer, than Berlioz? The answer is simple..not in the manner of Berlioz! Au contraire. This is a stupid subject and I wonder why I have spend this amount of time.....

Post by seth August 23, 2005 (9 of 12)
viktor said:

Why compare the symphonies with the quartets? The operas with the oratorios? The sonatas with the suites?

Why? Because no composer's talents are equal in every genre. In many instances, composers are much more comfortable working within a certain genre. For instance, Schubert's orchestral music tells you very little about him as a composer. His genius lay in his chamber music and lieder, which best expose his qualities as a composer. Nothing in his orchestral output comes close to Winterreise, or the quintet for two celli, or trout quintet. If you really want to experience Beethoven's beauty, you have to turn to his piano sonatas and string quartets. Only the slow movements of the third and seventh symphonies begin to approach the late quartets.

Post by Ken_P August 23, 2005 (10 of 12)
seth said:

Why? Because no composer's talents are equal in every genre. In many instances, composers are much more comfortable working within a certain genre. For instance, Schubert's orchestral music tells you very little about him as a composer. His genius lay in his chamber music and lieder, which best expose his qualities as a composer. Nothing in his orchestral output comes close to Winterreise, or the quintet for two celli, or trout quintet. If you really want to experience Beethoven's beauty, you have to turn to his piano sonatas and string quartets. Only the slow movements of the third and seventh symphonies begin to approach the late quartets.

I have a bit of a problem with this example. Beethoven's late quartets are unique achievements in the history of music. There is simply nothing in the oeuvre of Beethoven or any other composer (with the possible exception of Bartok's quartets) that can approach the late Beethoven quartets. How about this for an example: which is a better example of Beethoven's late style, the Ninth Symphony or the Hammerklavier sonata? I'd be hard pressed to choose. The point is, though, that they're both great works in different genres.

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