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Discussion: Bach: Les Quatre Ouvertures - Savall

Posts: 36
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Post by canonical May 15, 2012 (1 of 36)
Translating the recording info blurb:


"Recorded in August 1990, at the Great Hall of the Arsenal in Metz, by Michael Bernstein and Charlotte Gilart of Kéranflèc'h."

If it is a 1990 recording, it presumably was a standard 44.1 kHz 16bit or similar CD resolution recording, so alas this is just a CD wrapped in SACD paper ... no benefit in moving this to SACD for stereo listeners.


Is there any multi-channel content for the MC crowd?

Post by Kal Rubinson May 15, 2012 (2 of 36)
Typically, the Savall transfers to SACD have benefited from whatever hand-waving was involved in producing the MCH tracks. I have no idea what they did (going back to the original multimic masters or using an ambience processor) but they all sound more open and the frontal soundstage is improved. Not a biggie but, since some of these, including this one, are among my favorite recordings, I'll bite.

Kal

Post by jeff3948 May 21, 2012 (3 of 36)
OK, I've had it with Alia Vox and their artificially created surround SACDs. I've been very patient, but now I must lash out. They have a huge opportunity to re-record these works in true multi-channel DSD sound, but instead they have decided over and over again, especially recently, to simply have recording engineer, Manuel Mohino, take their old PCM 44.1kHz/16-bit recordings and use their PCM 44.1kHz/16-bit “convolution reverberator (Sony DRE2000), that means using the reverberation of the original recording location.” To ARTIFICALLY create their SACDs as quoted directly to me via e-mail by Manuel Mohino himself regarding their Purcell re-release in 2009 (FAIRY QUEEN & THE PROPHETESS, AVSA9866). Also their huge theme oriented and expensive multi-SACD releases have a lot of old artificially multi-channeled material in them as well.

I’M TIRED OF IT! I’VE HAD IT AND I’M NOT GOING TO BUY THEIR OLD ARTIFICAILLY RE-CREATED SACDs ANYMORE! I WANT NEW DSD MULTI-CHANNEL RECORDINGS ON SACD FROM ALIA VOX! NO MORE OLD PCM 44.1KHZ/16-BIT ARTICIALLY RE-CREATED SURROUND STUFF!

Post by Claude May 21, 2012 (4 of 36)
AFAIK all their reissues of old recordings are made in their "Alia Vox Heritage" series, at mid price.

Post by Domimag May 21, 2012 (5 of 36)
jeff3948 said:

OK, I've had it with Alia Vox and their artificially created surround SACDs. I've been very patient, but now I must lash out. They have a huge opportunity to re-record these works in true multi-channel DSD sound, but instead they have decided over and over again, especially recently, to simply have recording engineer, Manuel Mohino, take their old PCM 44.1kHz/16-bit recordings and use their PCM 44.1kHz/16-bit “convolution reverberator (Sony DRE2000), that means using the reverberation of the original recording location.” To ARTIFICALLY create their SACDs as quoted directly to me via e-mail by Manuel Mohino himself regarding their Purcell re-release in 2009 (FAIRY QUEEN & THE PROPHETESS, AVSA9866). Also their huge theme oriented and expensive multi-SACD releases have a lot of old artificially multi-channeled material in them as well.

I’M TIRED OF IT! I’VE HAD IT AND I’M NOT GOING TO BUY THEIR OLD ARTIFICAILLY RE-CREATED SACDs ANYMORE! I WANT NEW DSD MULTI-CHANNEL RECORDINGS ON SACD FROM ALIA VOX! NO MORE OLD PCM 44.1KHZ/16-BIT ARTICIALLY RE-CREATED SURROUND STUFF!

And what do you think of all these dozens of reissues (stereo only) : EMI, Deutsche Gramophon, Universal Japan etc... at full price ?

On Alia Vox serie "heritage", the original CD (great success at their time) are now difficult to get and it is a good thing to find them again in a very good packaging, at mid-price... and you can choose to listen the stereo track with no problem.

Post by wehecht May 22, 2012 (6 of 36)
Kal Rubinson said:

Typically, the Savall transfers to SACD have benefited from whatever hand-waving was involved in producing the MCH tracks. I have no idea what they did (going back to the original multimic masters or using an ambience processor) but they all sound more open and the frontal soundstage is improved.

I agree. I don't have this particular disc, but I enjoy the multi-channel Art of the Fugue, and Seven Last Words, no matter how they were created. A number of labels have reissued stereo recordings in artificially derived multi-channel sound, with variable results. My experience has been that those on Capriccio are awful, the Membrans are unpredictable ranging from pretty bad to pretty good, and those on Alia Vox and Albany are quite convincing. Since Savall obviously doesn't have any immediate intention of re-recording these works and since no one is likely to issue brand new MCH recordings of George Lloyd, Roy Harris, or Don Gillis anytime soon, I'm personally very grateful for the Alia Vox and Albany releases.

Post by canonical May 22, 2012 (7 of 36)
Doesn't anyone sell a box that takes a standard stereo CD and creates a fake multi-channel surround for those who want it? Wouldn't that make more sense? Then you could listen to all your old CDs in fake surround.

Post by jeff3948 May 22, 2012 (8 of 36)
canonical said:

Doesn't anyone sell a box that takes a standard stereo CD and creates a fake multi-channel surround for those who want it? Wouldn't that make more sense? Then you could listen to all your old CDs in fake surround.

Yes, they do, any surround receiver like my Denon AVR-3807 or my Sony can add artifical rear channel surround effects. I'd rather see Alia Vox spend money on re-recording these works in true DSD surround sound, rather than re-issuing 20+ year old material. You can find much of the old Astrée label which makes up the Alia Vox Heritage series on CDs from Amazon merchants (except for this one). They added reverb to the DSD stereo layer as well. Only the CD layer sounds the same as the original CDs. I would love to hear Savall do Vivaldi's Seasons in true surround sound where the orchestra is actually surrounding you!!! Savall did this with his Mozart Notturna for four orchestra's SACD. Why not make FULL use of the medium, like many labels did with quadraphonic sound in the 1970's where the orchestra surrounds you!! Everest Mussorgsky SACD for example where the orchestra surrounds you taken from the original eight track master tape. You can't recreate that effect with any devise. The Everest Mussorgsky SACD is stunning. Savall, get to it!

Post by Kal Rubinson May 23, 2012 (9 of 36)
jeff3948 said:

(1) I'd rather see Alia Vox spend money on re-recording these works in true DSD surround sound, rather than re-issuing 20+ year old material. You can find much of the old Astrée label which makes up the Alia Vox Heritage series on CDs from Amazon merchants (except for this one).

(2) I would love to hear Savall do Vivaldi's Seasons in true surround sound where the orchestra is actually surrounding you!!! Savall did this with his Mozart Notturna for four orchestra's SACD. Why not make FULL use of the medium, like many labels did with quadraphonic sound in the 1970's where the orchestra surrounds you!! Everest Mussorgsky SACD for example where the orchestra surrounds you taken from the original eight track master tape. You can't recreate that effect with any devise. The Everest Mussorgsky SACD is stunning. Savall, get to it!

(1) I do agree with you but I suspect that the economics are what is behind this. AliaVox are issuing new true surround SACDs along with these reissues that are, admittedly, much less expensive to produce. I have purchased the new SACDs only when I don't have the originals.

(2) Not everyone agrees with you. I, for one, prefer a perspective that retains the traditional relationship between performer and listener. Those really surround-y mixes are often impressive and great for demos but I cannot listen to them for musical enjoyment. The effects distract me.

Kal

Post by jeff3948 May 23, 2012 (10 of 36)
Kal Rubinson said:

(1) I do agree with you but I suspect that the economics are what is behind this. AliaVox are issuing new true surround SACDs along with these reissues that are, admittedly, much less expensive to produce. I have purchased the new SACDs only when I don't have the originals.

(2) Not everyone agrees with you. I, for one, prefer a perspective that retains the traditional relationship between performer and listener. Those really surround-y mixes are often impressive and great for demos but I cannot listen to them for musical enjoyment. The effects distract me.

Kal

Hi Kal Rubinson,

(1) Yes, I'm sure the economy in Spain and the rest of the world has a lot to do with so few truely new SACDs coming out from Alia Vox. However, why not save the money being spent on artificially enhancing the old stuff and going through the huge expense of having SACDs manufactured for those old recordings. I'd rather have just ONE additional NEW SACD per year than have all these old recordings rehashed expecially since I already have many of them under the Astree label. I wonder how much money they are really making off those re-issued recordings?

(2) I also like the traditional perspective. However, when I heard the voices surrounding me for the first time on an Aix 5.1 96kHz/24bit DVD-A Disc called "Zephyr: Voices Unbounded", it blew my mind!! And then again with the Everest SACD mentioned earlier, it was as if I were one of the musicians sitting in the orchestra!! It was an incredable event for me. If I had Warren Buffet's money I'd create my own SACD recording label and record BOTH perpectives (stage and audience, so you'd be happy too) from the world's greatest orchestras and recording venues. Savall would be the first one I'd hire to do Vivaldi's Four Seasons. It would create a sensation!!

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