Thread: Stage perspective, Real Surround, aggressive mix... A list of discs with "music from behind"

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Post by Marpow October 27, 2014 (111 of 130)
rammiepie said:

Mark, are you referring to the 4.0 DTS version of Santana's Abraxas released by DTS Entertainment some years ago?

It was NOT well received but with my various tweaks it has become one of my favorite surround discs.

An extremely aggressive, immersive mix not unlike Rhino's aggressive 4.0 DTS remix of Chicago Transit Authority's double album.

Played VERY loudly, Abraxas ROCKS!

Ralph, here is my review on Amazon August 14th, 2014.

Very dissapointed in this 5.1 DTS remaster. This is an iconic album that they got wrong.
First, my immediate reaction is the artwork is faded unlike the bright original artwork.
My stereo system has all the bells and whistles and of course can reproduce any DTS disc.
Hard for me to explain the poor remaster, but sounds like they took each recorded part, split between the 5 speakers and sub with no additional mix. Some of the songs the rhythm section is coming at you from front and some from rear. You hear too many details that you would not hear if mixed properly. I love 5.1 mixes, almost always, but I am sorry I had to return this back to Amazon. I will be repurchasing probably the Mobile Fidelity version in stereo. If I hadn't listened to Abraxas a million times in my life maybe I would have been fooled, but this was just to awful for my ears.

So, that said, to further: It sounded like to me that they had original master? and on mixing board they just took all the random recorded parts and set them in speakers surround with no real mix to it. Hard for me to explain.
I have no EQ capabilities with my McIntosh, just the ability to adjust bass, treble, sub and trim speakers.

I did get the MOFI stereo and am happy with that.

Post by fredblue October 28, 2014 (112 of 130)
The Abraxas DTS uses an old Quad/4.0 mix. A lot of them (especially those from CBS/Columbia in the early days of Quad) were like that with hard panning and odd, unnatural instrument placement going on. It's not a great vintage mix even by quirky old Quad standards and not great fidelity in the transfer to DTS either. Such an album could really benefit from a new 5.1 remix, though when Sony were in the MultiCh SACD market they chose to reissue Abraxas as Stereo only for whatever reason, so if you want to hear the album in surround it's your only choice, though far from ideal I agree.

Post by Iain October 28, 2014 (113 of 130)
Please try to keep this thread on topic.

This is SA-CD.net; please read the thread title, as well.

Post by Luong December 6, 2014 (114 of 130)
Some thoughts about 15 years (1999 – 2014) of buying aggressive-mix MCH recordings.

1/ Go ahead and enjoy what sounds good to my ears for it will, paradoxically, expand the scope of my taste. MCH stage-perspective recordings make it interesting to sit and listen to complete String Quartets of Beethoven and Haydn, a feat I could not do with audience-perspective discs and definitely not with 2-channel. I have grown to also enjoy MCH Pop/Rock recordings because more often than not they are aggressive mix and their English lyrics is a big help in conveying the feeling . I even like a MCH Rap/ Alt Rock disc (Linkin Park : Reanimation DVD-A).

2/ The most expensive item in this hobby is not the equipment or software. It is the time. I have less than 2 hours a week for real listening. Make it count. Make it a happy time. Don’t try to have it all. Don’t get upset on MCH recordings that are an insult to the word surround, my life is too short for that, just get rid of them and move on.

I have whittled my collection down to less than 200 discs that I enjoy and listen to frequently. No more a room full of shelves sagging down with discs and discs, gathering dust.

3/ I am not looking forward to getting Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos with enthusiasm like I was with earlier disc formats and codec anymore. I already got burned by old Laserdisc, DTS-CD, DVD-A, SACD, HD-DVD, BD with “ambience only “ surround sound. The majority of MCH music recordings will still be produced in the same audience-perspective style, making fun of the dozen of Auro 3D or Atmos speakers on the floor, up the walls and ceiling top. My motto in this case is “lower your expectation”.

So long 2014.

Post by Marpow December 6, 2014 (115 of 130)
Luong said:

Some thoughts about 15 years (1999 – 2014) of buying aggressive-mix MCH recordings.

So long 2014.

Cool man, great perspective.

As a "wanna be" audiophile, I do have to real my self in many times as I start listening too hard, rather than just listening and enjoying to what got me hear in the first place.

Post by steviev December 6, 2014 (116 of 130)
Luong said:

3/ I am not looking forward to getting Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos with enthusiasm like I was with earlier disc formats and codec anymore. I already got burned by old Laserdisc, DTS-CD, DVD-A, SACD, HD-DVD, BD with “ambience only “ surround sound. The majority of MCH music recordings will still be produced in the same audience-perspective style, making fun of the dozen of Auro 3D or Atmos speakers on the floor, up the walls and ceiling top. My motto in this case is “lower your expectation”.

Same here. MDG's 2+2+2 method has given me some insight into the effect height speakers have on the sound, and I can verify they don't make near the difference that rears do for ambience and/or aggro surround presentation, or the difference a center makes in left-to-right soundstage precision. From what I've read, the Auro 3D codec is very complex and so older receivers can't be upgraded with the codec, even if they support up to 9.1 output (as does my Yamaha). There's no way I'm buying a new receiver just for the sake of a couple more rear height speakers -- I doubt it makes much of an audible difference.

Post by Luong January 14, 2015 (117 of 130)
High Definition Tape Transfer /alltitles2/622/1 label in late 2014 issued a very good multichannel disc titled Bach’s Greatest Fugues Scored for Double Orchestra.

According to the info on the box cover, the music was performed by the Philadelphia Orchestra, conducted by Eugene Ormandy . Date of recording is 1973 and transferred to Blu-Ray 24/192 4.0 from an RCA quadraphonic 4-track tape. The Blu-Ray also includes 24/192 Stereo Flac files but I listened in MCH only.

The layout of the sound field is Violin 1&2 front left; Viola, Cello and Bass front right; Percussion center; Brass 1 & Woodwind 1 rear left; Brass 2 & Woodwind 2 rear right. The disc contains 7 fugues that are transcribed from organ form to be played by orchestra. All the themes and contrapunctal phrases are immediately accessible and more enjoyable by my brain thanks to the rich and distinct timber of orchestral arrangement compared to 10 fingers and 2 feet of a sole organist. The wrap around separation of those complex voices is the biggest delight.

If you like E.Power Biggs Bach: The Four Great Toccatas and Fugues - E. Power Biggs , you will like this Bach’s Greatest Fugues Scored for Double Orchestra Blu-Ray as well. The last track of this Blu-Ray is the same fugue in C Major BWV 564 in the last track of the single-layered mch SACD above. The orchestras of course lack the deep wall-rattling bass of the mighty pipe organ but more than make up for it with the richness of orchestral tones that Biggs could not pull off.

The problem is that I cannot enter this lovely Blu-Ray into SA-CD.net database. The disc comes in standard blue Blu-Ray case with Blu-Ray logos on the disc, on the box, and on the cover. However, it does not have a bar code anywhere, neither on the box nor on the disc. Without the bar code, I cannot get past the field on the enter screen. Maybe zeus or poly can help.

Post by Iain January 14, 2015 (118 of 130)
Amazon ASIN number for the latter title is:
ASIN: B00008PX99

Not sure of the former, but if you purchased it at Amazon, it would have an ASIN number.

Contact your local Amazon. They might be able to resolve your problem with that title.

Post by Marpow January 14, 2015 (119 of 130)
Funny this subject reappeared.

Last night I listened to the Dual Disc, Grateful Dead, American Beauty.

Very rear loaded. On the DVD, Mickey Hart explains that when he did the remix to 5.1 he wanted us to hear the music the way he heard it on stage. He says, the two guitar amps where always behind him, late 60's early 70's, and he heard the music as he was playing with guitars behind and vocals in front of him.

The best thing about this disc was that explanation by the artist because as I listened first I said to myself,this is so rear loaded and I wondered why. Then seeing the DVD video and explanation I thought that was very cool.

Post by Iain January 14, 2015 (120 of 130)
Luong said:

High Definition Tape Transfer /alltitles2/622/1 label in late 2014 issued a very good multichannel disc titled Bach’s Greatest Fugues Scored for Double Orchestra.

According to the info on the box cover, the music was performed by the Philadelphia Orchestra, conducted by Eugene Ormandy . Date of recording is 1973 and transferred to Blu-Ray 24/192 4.0 from an RCA quadraphonic 4-track tape. The Blu-Ray also includes 24/192 Stereo Flac files but I listened in MCH only.

The layout of the sound field is Violin 1&2 front left; Viola, Cello and Bass front right; Percussion center; Brass 1 & Woodwind 1 rear left; Brass 2 & Woodwind 2 rear right. The disc contains 7 fugues that are transcribed from organ form to be played by orchestra. ...

...

The problem is that I cannot enter this lovely Blu-Ray into SA-CD.net database. The disc comes in standard blue Blu-Ray case with Blu-Ray logos on the disc, on the box, and on the cover. However, it does not have a bar code anywhere, neither on the box nor on the disc. Without the bar code, I cannot get past the field on the enter screen. Maybe zeus or poly can help.

This might be of help, as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Article_Number_%28EAN%29

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