Thread: ELP High-Res Petition

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Post by rammiepie June 20, 2012 (11 of 96)
sylvian said:

Hello Burning Shed (UK) taking pre-orders for the first 2 albums: ELP and Tarkus right now. These will be available from 16th of July this year as 2cd/dvd sets with the same treatment as for King Crimson eg. Steven Wilson:Mixing + Neil Wilkes:Authoring

Not so fast. They will NOT be DVD~Audio but rather 2 RBCDs with bonus material and according to Burning Shed's website "probably" consist of a DVD with a LPCM 94/24 stereo remaster and either/or DD or DTS (Sony usually does DD) 5.1 surround track mastered by Steve Wilson.

I ordered both discs (ELP first and Tarkus) from Amazon UK which in US dollars minus the VAT and incl. s/h comes out to $16 per 3 disc set.

They will be released (according to Amazon UK) on July 24th.

Post by rtalbot June 21, 2012 (12 of 96)
Here's an update from Steven Wilson on these reissues:

Hi folks!

The first 2 ELPs will be DVD releases with DTS 5.1 and LPCM stereo. But the level of interest in high res has been noted by Sony, and I think we may now be in a position to change this for future releases.

So ELP have not stood the test of time as other bands from the era ??? I couldn't disagree with such comment more, but anyway that's not a reason to "re-conceive" Tarkus. I will not try to make a competition between ELP vs King Crimson vs Genesis vs Yes to make a point, as I love them all, but any of those can be beaten to death by whoever is not willing to understand prog aesthetics and label it "dated" (and I'm not implying that did happen in the interview). Anyway, I really find this comment very awkward. ELP has indeed passed the test of time, and by that I mean it has never been nor will be ever under dispute that ELP is one of the best prog bands ever (in terms of ambition, influence, music levels, performance levels, technology, historical importance). If nowadays music has nothing to do with ELP, well that's another discussion, but then maybe it's a good sign that ELP has nothing to do with nowadays music.

Well I did say it was just my opinion! I love ELP, sometimes acknowledging that something is a part of its time is not a criticism at all. I found that some of the music belonged more to its time than say music from the same era by Pink Floyd and King Crimson. And yes we are certainly not in dispute over ELP being one of the greatest prog rock bands ever.

And Jeremy Bender/Are you ready Eddy are "fillers"?? I'm sorry, but I just can't accept this. So why ELP played so much Jeremy Bender in public during the '70s? And why "Are you ready Eddy" have such incredible piano lines?

Well for me, yes Are you Ready Eddy really is the epitome of filler - a drunken rock n roll jam recorded by the band in order to make up enough music for the LP. On the other hand a track they worked really hard on like "Oh My Father" was left off for reasons of band politics or personal reasons, which are no longer relevant. Jeremy Bender, point taken.

What comes next? Will "Benny The Bouncer" be considered a "filler"? Maybe the Second Movement of Emerson's Concerto is also a "filler". "Tank" from Works 1 is most probably a "filler". So what? Fillers should be treated with respect, as someone who counts once decided they'd be in.
I personally don't like "C'est la vie": what if someone who shares this opinion with me, and is given power, decides it's a "filler"??

It depends - the whole idea grew out of the fact that for the first album the master tapes for Tank and two thirds of The Three Fates were missing, so with the caveat that the original album master was going to be included anyway, we came up with the idea of using some of the excellent out-takes to create a an alternative version of the album on the second CD with the new mixes. Having done this I thought it would be cool to extend the concept (with the band's approval) to Tarkus and to include the 2 excellent ballads that were left off the album in the running order of the new mixes of CD2 (again the original album master is included on CD1). It's only this second CD in the package that includes the alternate running order - Jeremy Bender and Are You Ready Eddy? are included in the correct place in the high res stereo on the DVD. Same is true of the 5.1 running order which matches the original album exactly (with Oh My Father as a bonus 5.1 mix at the end).

If we did carry the idea forward for a alternate running order to future albums, and replace one of the more (let's use this word instead of filler) "frivolous" tracks (and I accept that humour was an important part of these records, I'm not trying to wipe that out!), then one of 2 things would have to be true: either the multi tracks would have to be missing to that track, or there would have to be an out-take that was so good it merited replacing it in the alternate track listing order. Once again this would only be done on the basis that the original album master is also a part of the package.

Isn't the "Works 2" an album made of fillers?

Yes, it is - I won't be doing that one!

Is it difficult to understand the concept of respecting a band's decision 40 years ago?

What about respecting the band's decision now? This is all with their approval (in fact Greg wanted to change a lot more believe me!)

I just think things are being mixed-up here: there are musical/aesthetic decisions, and there are technical/audiophile decisions. Both are very important. But IMMO, there's an inner part of the former activity which the latter should not step into.

I guess where you draw the line on that is a personal thing. For example some would say don't even remix the material into surround sound, since it was never intended for it in the first place. Others would say leave out-takes unreleased since the band clearly didn't want them released at the time…etc.. My own line with these releases is to always ask the record company to include the original mix too, so that if there is a new mix then it simply becomes an alternate perspective. For the very first (and possibly) last time this has also extended to trying to present an alternate running order too (in one case by necessity, in another by choice). All I would ask is wait until you hear it before telling me whether you think it works or not. By the way, if you've never heard "Oh My Father" I really think it's astoundingly good, it's really the main reason why I wanted to do the alternate Tarkus thing.

One other thing worth noting is that the creation of the new stereo mixes is actually a necessary step towards creating the 5.1 mixes - when I started doing the 5.1 mixes of the Crimson catalogue it never occurred to me that the new stereo mixes would also be included. But then we began to hear that sometimes the new stereo mixes had a degree of clarity sometimes missing from the original mixes, and so starting with Lizard this became something that was always an option. I certainly don't think my ELP mixes are better than the originals (there's only a couple of times I would claim that there was a notable and clear improvement - Lizard and Aqualung, but even then it's down to taste), because the originals are fantastic - but they do sound different, and some people do seem to appreciate the alternative perspective.

Best!
SW

Post by rammiepie June 21, 2012 (13 of 96)
rtalbot, very informative post. BTW, is the LPCM stereo hi rez or 48/16?

And is there a future possibility that additional ELP titles will be SACDs, since SONY is showing renewed interest in hi rez?

Addenda: Just checked out the back of the upcoming ELP albums and it does say 2012 hi rez stereo remasters (but in the dualdisc days, SONY falsely said the same about the stereo remasters ....... they were 48/16 (but in all sincerity they did better than their RBCD counterparts) ).

Post by manticore4 June 23, 2012 (14 of 96)
I just got a notification from Amazon.co.uk that the release date for both the first album and Tarkus has been pushed back one week (to July 30th).

One week is surely not enough time to re-author DVD-V to a DVD-A (to accommodate hi-resolution MLP multichannel), but one can hope. Nonetheless, if there are repeated delays then the likelihood of hi-rez multichannel becomes more and more likely.

Come on, Steven Wilson, throw some weight around and get Sony to give us those true DVD-A discs!

Post by 51surr June 23, 2012 (15 of 96)
manticore4 said:

I just got a notification from Amazon.co.uk that the release date for both the first album and Tarkus has been pushed back one week (to July 30th).

One week is surely not enough time to re-author DVD-V to a DVD-A (to accommodate hi-resolution MLP multichannel), but one can hope. Nonetheless, if there are repeated delays then the likelihood of hi-rez multichannel becomes more and more likely.

Come on, Steven Wilson, throw some weight around and get Sony to give us those true DVD-A discs!

Release them on SACD.

Post by rammiepie June 23, 2012 (16 of 96)
manticore4 said:

I just got a notification from Amazon.co.uk that the release date for both the first album and Tarkus has been pushed back one week (to July 30th).

One week is surely not enough time to re-author DVD-V to a DVD-A (to accommodate hi-resolution MLP multichannel), but one can hope. Nonetheless, if there are repeated delays then the likelihood of hi-rez multichannel becomes more and more likely.

Come on, Steven Wilson, throw some weight around and get Sony to give us those true DVD-A discs!

Sony has NEVER released a true DVD~Audio disc and since it appears that all the artwork has been rendered for the upcoming ELP releases that they will be released, as advertised.

More surprising is that SONY has NOT released a Blu~Ray Audio only disc which would basically be an extension (especially in Dolby True HD) of the MLP codec developed by Meridian for DVD~Audio.

Perhaps future ELP releases will be in the SACD format and possibly the two aforementioned may also find their way onto SACD since the 5.1 remastering in hi~rez has already been done.

Another missed opportunity (of many) for SONY, Inc.

Post by Arizonaguy June 30, 2012 (17 of 96)
The first album and Tarkus is at the Amazon today !!! BTW, if you want to extract audio from DVD, here are two decent DVD audio extractor http://dvdrippingsoftwares.org/dvdtips/dvd-to-mp3-mac.html

Post by rtalbot June 30, 2012 (18 of 96)
rtalbot said:

http://feedback.legacyrecordings.com/forums/6333-reissue-requests/suggestions/2931229-release-elp-5-1-mixes-in-high-resolution-

Hey guys!
Go to the above link to let Legacy Recordings know that they should be releasing the upcoming ELP deluxe 5.1 reissues in a high-res format, like SACD, Blu-Ray, or DVD-Audio! (use your 3 vote option)

Keep voting people! :)

Post by rammiepie June 30, 2012 (19 of 96)
rtalbot said:

Keep voting people! :)

There have already been two announcements of delays in the ELP releases.........anyone have any further info as to why these delays have transpired?

Hopefully, good news!

I did cast my vote for a hi~rez 5.1 remaster for what it's worth.

Post by Kutyatest July 1, 2012 (20 of 96)
rammiepie said:

rtalbot, very informative post. BTW, is the LPCM stereo hi rez or 48/16?

And is there a future possibility that additional ELP titles will be SACDs, since SONY is showing renewed interest in hi rez?

Addenda: Just checked out the back of the upcoming ELP albums and it does say 2012 hi rez stereo remasters (but in the dualdisc days, SONY falsely said the same about the stereo remasters ....... they were 48/16 (but in all sincerity they did better than their RBCD counterparts) ).

Yes, I was asking myself the same question, i.e. is LPCM considered hi-res or not. Unfortunately, I don't have the technical knowledge.

Just out of interest though, for what it's worth, I thought I'd pop my Alan Parsons Project DVD-As into my Arcam DV137 to see what on-screen info was available regarding audio spec. As you'd expect, the DVD-A side is MLP 24bit/192kHz - and the DVD-V side is LPCM 24bit/48kHz.

My Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" DVD-A, also a two-sided disc, has MLP 5.1 96kHz on the DVD-A side, with both the mono and stereo options shown as 2.0 channel 96kHz LPCM and offered (interestingly on both sides of the disc, irrespective of DVD-A or DVD-V). I have assumed that the player recognises both the mono and stereo options as 2.0 channel, because these discs are not "compatible" with mono, meaning that this one channel option is probably two-channel mono (i.e two channels containing exactly the same information).

Apologies if I've gone a bit off-topic, but I'm also interested to know what is meant. I suppose the most importnat thing though, is how do these options sound. I like them all. Hopefully, if this is how any new ELP offerings are presented, they will sound better than the RBCD counterparts.

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