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Discussion: Rimsky-Korsakov: Sheherazade - Oundjian

Posts: 108
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Post by srl1 July 21, 2014 (41 of 108)
mpdonahue said:

Dear all,
I think we all need to take a deep breath and think carefully before putting forward that there is nefarious intent by the folks trying to get high quality recordings out there. These people work hard in a pretty thankless job to get the material out to the customer.
WRT this title, it was recorded in 192k 24bit PCM but only SACD production masters were provided to the label. At the labels request,a new set of 192k masters were supplied only today and will be available for download in the coming days.

All the best,
Mark Donahue
Soundmirror, Inc.
Boston, MA

I received this reply to my inquiry about the 192/24 version. It basically supports what Mark said in less technical terms :)

Dear Sir,
We apologise for the wrong resolution of the files for this product.
We have no control over the files that come in from labels and trust that they
are what's written on the the packet!
The error has been reported to the supplier and new 192K files are being
prepared for us right now.
We hope to have them live in the next week and will inform you when it happens.
Kind regards
The Classical Shop Team

Post by srl1 July 21, 2014 (42 of 108)
A quick update on this. I was notified by support that the 192/24 files are now installed on the Classical Shop website. I went there and successfully downloaded them.

I find the sound quality to be excellent, and I'm upgrading my initial impression of the performance to very, very good.

Post by Chris July 22, 2014 (43 of 108)
mpdonahue said:

Dear all,
I think we all need to take a deep breath and think carefully before putting forward that there is nefarious intent by the folks trying to get high quality recordings out there. These people work hard in a pretty thankless job to get the material out to the customer.
WRT this title, it was recorded in 192k 24bit PCM but only SACD production masters were provided to the label. At the labels request,a new set of 192k masters were supplied only today and will be available for download in the coming days.

All the best,
Mark Donahue
Soundmirror, Inc.
Boston, MA

Thanks for your response,

Let me just make myself clear on one point.I was not accusing you or Chandos,one of my favourite classical labels,of any nefarious intent.

I was just a bit curious knowing that you do most recordings in DSD.

But,if I understand things correctly the SACD is from 24/96 files and the download now obviously actually uploaded from the actual native masterfiles 24/192?
Some further questions arise though.
Are both the stereo files and mch files now 24/192 or is it only the stereo download that is 24/192?
And why was the "SACD production master" sent to Chandos as only 24/96 and not 24/192?
And also do you,who actually recorded it in 24/192 hear any difference between your native 24/192 master and the downsampled 24/96 one?
If so please explain what differences you hear between the two.
And what are your thoughts on DSD 64 against 128 and DSD 256?

I also assume that you used a Horus for the recording sessions?

Wouldn't it have been more future safe to record in DXD or DSD 256,since obviously,you delivered and the SACDs seem have been produced from 24/96 masters anyway?
Why not always take advantage of making the highest quality master possible when obviosly the equipment used can record at both higher sampling rates in pcm and also up to DSD 256?

I am asking all this because of a real interest in the art of recording classical music.

All the best and thanks for the many great recordings you have made available to us.
Chris

Post by mekduk July 22, 2014 (44 of 108)
Chris, you have pretty much the same questions as me and let's thank Mark should he respond here. Let's not forget he is the man behind that Living Stereo reissues that I still love.

I believe the SACD production master is already in .dff format when it's sent for pressing.

Post by tailspn July 22, 2014 (45 of 108)
mekduk said:

I believe the SACD production master is already in .dff format when it's sent for pressing.

This Merging Technologies Power Point presentation may answer some of your questions:

http://www.merging.com/uploads/assets/Merging_pdfs/SACD_Mastering_Authoring_update.ppt

The slides of greatest relevance to your interest are the first few over-viewing the process, and then starting about slide 21.

Since the production of this slide show, the two authoring file formats mentioned in slide 24 (Philips and Sony), have been succeeded by Universal Cutting Master Format (UCMF). This is also the same as an ISO file, either before SACD stamping, or after ripping.

Slide 28 shows the process from the editing/mastering stage through the generation of the cutting master. EM is the abbreviation of Edited Master, the production stage of the downloads offered at nativedsd.com.

Post by mekduk July 22, 2014 (46 of 108)
Thanks for the very valuable insight and I stand corrected. Very interesting slides and presentation.

As per Bruce's suggestion, I went on to acquire a second hand set of EMM Labs CDSD and DAC8MkIV plus a new Tascam DA-3000. We can only get the stereo DSD material, not the multichannel (this is obtained through another mean).

Post by tailspn July 22, 2014 (47 of 108)
mekduk said:

Thanks for the very valuable insight and I stand corrected.

You intent was correct. The music data is from .dff format; just .dst compressed if above 4.7GB total stereo + mch (all hybrid SACD's are) to fit on the DSD layer. My question is to the degree (if any) the "lossless" compression affects the sound quality to make the cutting master.

Post by mpdonahue July 22, 2014 (48 of 108)
Just to add some clarification...

"But,if I understand things correctly the SACD is from 24/96 files and the download now obviously actually uploaded from the actual native masterfiles 24/192?"
No, If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, The original recordings were recorded in 192k/24bit PCM using the Merging Horus. This recording was made before the Horus was DSD/DXD capable so 192k was the highest available resolution. Also, the original recording was not destined for SACD but rather high resolution stereo download from the TSO. All delivery formats (Including the SACD) are sourced from the original 192k files.

"Wouldn't it have been more future safe to record in DXD or DSD 256,since obviously,you delivered and the SACDs seem have been produced from 24/96 masters anyway?"

Again, All delivery formats (Including the SACD) are sourced from the original 192k files.

"Why not always take advantage of making the highest quality master possible when obviosly the equipment used can record at both higher sampling rates in pcm and also up to DSD 256?"

Again, This recording was made before the Horus was DSD/DXD capable so 192k was the highest available resolution.

"Are both the stereo files and mch files now 24/192 or is it only the stereo download that is 24/192?"

Both stereo and surround download files were supplied at 192k/24bit. Beyond that I can not comment.

"And why was the "SACD production master" sent to Chandos as only 24/96 and not 24/192?

The SACD production master was provided in the appropriate DSD format for creation of an SACD.

"And also do you,who actually recorded it in 24/192 hear any difference between your native 24/192 master and the downsampled 24/96 one?
If so please explain what differences you hear between the two."
I was not involved in the creation of nor have I listened to the 96k files, so I have no comment.

"And what are your thoughts on DSD 64 against 128 and DSD 256?"

WRT DSD64 vs 128 and 256, we are recording all current projects in DSD256. We think it sounds better and solves a bunch of technical issues that we had to struggle with while working from multi-track DSD master recordings in the past.

All the best,
Mark Donahue

Post by Chris from Lafayette July 22, 2014 (49 of 108)
I just downloaded the multi-channel 24/192 files from The Classical Shop earlier today – it took about 3 hours and 45 minutes. No problems with the files or with converting the FLAC format to AIFF, per my personal preference.

Based on my single listening so far, I thought this recording was just wonderful, particularly in the areas of subtle nuance at low dynamic levels, continuity of dynamics (I hate to use this hackneyed “audiophile” example, but the decay of the cymbal shimmer was remarkable indeed), and definition of pitch at all dynamic levels. In all, it was just sensational, and, as it was playing, I remarked to my wife, “This is living!”. (She’s not a big fan of Scheherazade, and she smiled gamely.) Although I’d say that this is another superbly engineered release from Chandos, the SQ, as we’d expect from the Soundmirror recording team, is somewhat different from the notably spacious Chandos sound we’ve experienced from Chandos' other recording locations, such as Glasgow, Birmingham, Bergen, or (in particular!) Geneva: much more close and focused here in Toronto. Nevertheless, the hall reverb is still audible, just not to the same extent as in those other locales. I'm sure the presence of an audience has something to do with this impression too.

We’ve also been having a discussion about this recording on the Audio Asylum site (in a thread started by srl1), and someone (either here or on AA) noted that the concertmaster’s solos were very expressively played. I agree, and although the pitch was not the most absolutely centered I’ve heard, it was by no means anything to worry about. The bassoon solo near the beginning of the second movement is played in a rhythmically free manner (which I don’t care for), but otherwise, the interpretation is pretty middle of the road. Despite this (and despite just a couple of places where the ensemble was not as “tight” as in some of the “super orchestra” recordings), I found myself noticing the subtlety of much of the playing, and how much detail I was hearing without a sense of its being abnormally spotlighted.

I also checked the tracks with spectrograph software: there are musical signals to above 50KHz (but also some noise bands in up that region and further above too). I’ve posted the graphs on my wife’s web site, in case anyone is interested in checking them. The URL’s are as follows (one graph per movement):

http://www.madelinesalocks.com/photos_miscellaneous/Scheherazade%20Op.-35-1.aiff.png
http://www.madelinesalocks.com/photos_miscellaneous/Scheherazade%20Op.-35-2.aiff.png
http://www.madelinesalocks.com/photos_miscellaneous/Scheherazade%20Op.-35-3.aiff.png
http://www.madelinesalocks.com/photos_miscellaneous/Scheherazade%20Op.-35-4.aiff.png

Overall, I’m very happy with this recording. It really IS living!

Post by mekduk July 23, 2014 (50 of 108)
I have cancelled my Amazon preorder (could not wait 1 month) and just downloaded from the website. Granted that it is much cheaper from Amazon UK but I could not resist instant gratification that is offered by downloads.

The two channel studio master has already been fixed as 24/192 and so is the multichannel.

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