Thread: Sibelius: Complete Symphonies (Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Paavo Berglund), Warner Classics

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Post by Polarius T October 22, 2015 (11 of 16)
In many important respect I think Finnish culture is just as far from your "Europe" as Japan is, Fox. You think they don't ultimately really get European music in Japan and I think they in Europe and beyond don't ultimately really get Finnish music (or Sibelius at the very least). It is because of that psychological makeup that you too refer to, not because of some simple "ethnic" quality.

Of course that is just a little part of music in general and I for sure don't subscribe to any viewpoint proposing there to be something like "national" or even less -- god forbid -- "ethnic" music. Obviously music is universal, more universal in fact than probably any other human phenomenon we are conscious of. But that does not exhaust it: what you get out of Sibelius and how you perceive and experience him is probably not how he appears and comes across to me, what he does to me -- there is this very Finnish quotient or quality left in it still that I doubt you can feel or experience if you don't share that same culture of heaviness, melancholy, nature, etc., from which Sibelius' music too arose. Therefore I reserve a right to dislike, sometimes deeply, those who don't get that specific "Finnish" psychological makeup making itself felt in Sibelius' music. It is, after all, the only thing making it worth engaging with it for me. In themselves, his works were pretty regressive already when they were composed, in their own time, and don't ultimately contain much that would be interesting in and of itself, which is why those not inhabiting the same psychological world do not seem to have that much to offer when performing Sibelius, at least for me. Without that oppressive intimacy with my own world his music does not have a lot of substance worth noting, compared to others who were his contemporaries and even composed before his time.

Not that I mind if others feel differently for their own part; I'm just talking about my own preferences and priorities and that's about it.

Post by Polarius T October 22, 2015 (12 of 16)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I agree. The notion of greater "authenticity" of music, especially based on nationality of the conductor, is highly overrated.

Sure, but I did not mean to use the word in that way. That is why I used it in quotation marks. You are taking it a bit out of context here. The point was that I feel him to struggle with the same issues as I do when confronted with Sibelius, and that he is not trying to express anything else apart from that.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 October 23, 2015 (13 of 16)
Polarius T said:

Sure, but I did not mean to use the word in that way. That is why I used it in quotation marks. You are taking it a bit out of context here. The point was that I feel him to struggle with the same issues as I do when confronted with Sibelius, and that he is not trying to express anything else apart from that.

I have the incomplete Vanska/Minnesota set and I definitely plan to get the Kamu/Lahti cycle of Sibelius. I greatly admire the Vanska and I look forward to the completion of his cycle. Perhaps his approach is deeply Finnish, but it is also highly personal in a non-nationalistic or non-ethnic way. His approach differs considerably from that of other Finns or of Naeme Jarvi from nearby Estonia, a rather weak cycle I might add.

I also have the Berglund #s 2 and 7 with the LPO:

Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 2 & 7 - Berglund

It is OK, but it does not make me want to forget about Davis or Ashkenazy or many other non-Finns. Perhaps Berglund's older set is better. But, this 2nd falls far short of Vanska's to my ears musically, and of course sonically.

So, I conclude that Finnishness alone does not make a great Sibelius cycle. Yes, I hear and love the distinctly Finnish character to the music. But, I do not think only a Finn can deliver a memorable performance of it. There is much more to the music than just its uniquely Finnish character.

As a matter of fact, I recently heard Yannick Nezet-Seguin with the Philadelphia orchestra deliver a top notch Sibelius 5th live - a French Canadian with an orchestra made up of many ethnicities. The New York Times echoed that opinion when the same concert was done at Carnegie.

Post by Luukas October 23, 2015 (14 of 16)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I have the incomplete Vanska/Minnesota set and I definitely plan to get the Kamu/Lahti cycle of Sibelius. I greatly admire the Vanska and I look forward to the completion of his cycle. Perhaps his approach is deeply Finnish, but it is also highly personal in a non-nationalistic or non-ethnic way. His approach differs considerably from that of other Finns or of Naeme Jarvi from nearby Estonia, a rather weak cycle I might add.

Carl, thank you very much for your comments! I disagree with you about the Vänskä's Minnesota incomplete cycle: the first two discs were very good in their own ways but they weren't definitely from the highest levels. Vänskä's approach was sometimes stressful and his tempo choices were quite strange: for example the second movement of the Symphony No. 2 was too slow, especially at the beginning. The recording - both on stereo and surround - was excellent. Personally I liked more Vänskä's older set with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra.

I'm looking forward - like you - to get the updated Sibelius cycle from Lahti: BBC Music Magazine gave the "Orchestral Choice" (the current issue).
By the way, I was there when the Sinfonia Lahti and Okko Kamu performed the Fifth Symphony by Sibelius in the Olavinlinna Castle, Savonlinna. The evening was the Sibelius jubilee concert. Kamu found the right way to the Sibelius's music - it was truly the evening what I will never forget.

My own top 5 list:
1) Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Paavo Berglund (conductor), Warner Classics
2) Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (Berliner Philharmoniker), Sir Simon Rattle (conductor), Berliner Philharmoniker Records
3) Lahti Symphony Orchestra, Osmo Vänskä (conductor), BIS
4) London Symphony Orchestra, Sir Colin Davis (conductor), LSO Live
5) New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, Pietari Inkinen (conductor), Naxos

Post by Polarius T October 23, 2015 (15 of 16)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I also have the Berglund #s 2 and 7 with the LPO:

Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 2 & 7 - Berglund

So, I conclude that Finnishness alone does not make a great Sibelius cycle.

That Berglund sucks. It is hard to believe it was conducted by the same person that's behind this truly great set, my favorite one.

P.S. Note the multi-culti orchestra here. It's not about that.

Post by hiredfox October 24, 2015 (16 of 16)
Polarius T said:

That Berglund sucks. It is hard to believe it was conducted by the same person that's behind this truly great set, my favorite one.

So much depends upon the rapport and empathy between conductor and orchestra. Guest conductors have an uphill struggle to get anything other than a reasonable performance from an unfamiliar ensemble even if the players actually like the maestro in the first place (recall the negative commentary of Marin Alsop by players for a certain well known US orchestra).

Even worse if a guest conductor has the 'arrogance' to record with an unfamiliar orchestra; one might hazard a guess that this explains your comment about the Berglund disc with the LPO alongside your obvious appreciation of the maestro's other discs.

Berglund was at Bournemouth for a few years but I recall it was a respectful relationship rather than one filled with euphoria and love. Litton created an altogether different atmosphere, indeed he married a lady from 2nd violins!

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