Thread: So, what will be new on SACD?

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Post by soundboy September 12, 2007 (21 of 100)
The Seventh Taylor said:

I guess the replication plant support, label support, retail uptake and consumer uptake are related on a sort of 'local-for-local' basis: minor but OK in Japan and Europe while almost zero in the US.

I have heard that Hong Kong Viva Magnetics have closed down its SACD pressing production. I feel this has more to do with the problem of cracking SACD like those from Crest National in the US. On the other hand, not that many Hong Kong SACD releases were ever issued with Viva pressings.

Post by TerraEpon September 12, 2007 (22 of 100)
Claude said:

There were a few more significant ones:

- the Talking Heads CD+DVD-A box set (released early 2006 in Europe only). In the US, it was released as DualDiscs (late 2005)

- The Doors "Perception" box set released this year

The current trend is that vinyl is the most popular "high resolution" format for pop and jazz.

Arkivmusic.com also lists a bunch, but mostly without any info aside from title on the "Classic Records" label...so it may be wrong.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/AlbumGroup?album_group=6&listAll=1&album_sort=2

-Joshua

Post by Peter September 12, 2007 (23 of 100)
TerraEpon said:

Arkivmusic.com also lists a bunch, but mostly without any info aside from title on the "Classic Records" label...so it may be wrong.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/AlbumGroup?album_group=6&listAll=1&album_sort=2

-Joshua

From Classic Records' website:

"HDAD 2012 - Berlioz Requiem (stereo and 4 channel) - This release marks the first multi-channel HDAD released by Classic Records as a two disc set.
Disc one is the normal two sided DVD disc with 2-channel 24/192 data on the DVD-A side with 2-channel 24/96 data on the opposite side. The second disc in the package contains the multi-channel (four) data in the same configuration. That is, one side of disc two contains 4 channels of 24/96 data which is MLP (lossless) encoded and playable on multi-channel capable DVD-Audio players. Side two of disc two contains Dolby AC-3 encoded four channel surround data playable on DVD video players."

This is the same recording as Berlioz: Requiem, Mahler: Symphony No. 1 - Utah/Abravanel without the Mahler. There are other releases which aren't on SACD, including some great Everest recordings.

Post by Lance B September 12, 2007 (24 of 100)
Cookie said:

Hi Lance, your thoughts have prompted me to respond. I have been fortunate to work directly with the people who first developed the technology of SACD from its inception. As well, I am a recording engineer and producer for more than twenty years specializing in acoustic high quality recording.

It's very complicated to explain the machine behind Sony and why they chose not to support SACD, but many of us tied up in the business still believe there is a place for quality in both sound and performance... despite the decline in both these aspects over the years.

My own frustration with the lack of quality led me to begin a record label, Blue Coast Records. I suggest you go to the website, bluecoastrecords.com and checkout what we are doing. If you're looking for something besides jazz and classical, we offer skilled playing of live acoustic music performed in the studio.

Not that I am blatantly trying to promote our brand, but, after making more than 400 titles, including working for Windham Hill during the golden age to being the recording engineer for Liquid Audio responsible for the first paid concert download, Blue Coast was an effort by me and my coproducer, Jean Claude Reynaud, to make the highest quality acoustic recordings possible without regard to expense at the session.

We developed a proprietary recording technique for the label that provides incredible results. Very holographic. Jean Claude is the son of Jean Marie Reynaud, the builder of some of the finest speakers I know of. We believed there would be people, like yourself, who would appreciate the quality we strive for.

The last 5 years, I have made a personal stand to record on 2" tape or DSD, only, mix to 1/2" tape, use less digital efx (if at all) and encourage all my independent labels of quality to release on SACD. Unfortunately, this is more difficult than you can imagine.

When we first released Blue Coast Collection last May we sold out. Trying to remanufacture the disc became a nightmare. Sony closed its plant in the USA and the only plant in operation is in Austria. It required that we hand test each and every disc for quality control. However, even with all these problems, we still believe in the format and will release on SACD as long as we can manufacture. It will require all of us to be vocal in our support of SACD and high quality recordings in general.

I teach my intern how to listen.. how to hear digital generations. I can tell you that each one becomes very frustrated with their current listening situations as well as the recordings they are offered by the major labels. There is hope.

Education, more publicity and support through purchasing discs will help.

Thanks for inspiring me to respond.

Cookie Marenco
www.cookiemarenco.com

Hi Cookie,

Thank you for your very informative and interesting post.

Interestingly, my son studied sound engineering at college the last 2 years- passed with honours! - and is now at university studying sound design and acoustic engineering. He is also an avid music buff and plays and teaches guitar. One of his lecturers at university is none other than Neville Thiele of Thiele/Small fame, who are the famous developers of the set of electromechanical parameters that define how a loudspeaker driver performs, their work is used in most, if not in all, speaker design.

My son and I spend many hours discussing his course and talking music. I too have dabbled in speaker design and speaker testing, on a limited scale, but suffice to say I have a reasonable understanding of sound and recording techniques.

It is surprising to think that Sony has abandoned SACD seeing as they co-devloped it along with Philips and also especially as they were both the co-developers of the CD format to start with! A sad state of affairs indeed.

I think the SACD's failure to be recognised is more to do with their failure to promote the technology correctly, rather than it not being desirable or worthy. Also, companies now seem to be driven completely by the $ and as such, if SACD does not make as much money as basic CD or MP3 etc, they drop SACD regardless of the consequences. The thing that they fail to appreciate is that I won't buy most CD's anyway, so they haven't driven me to go the CD route and consequently have lost any revenue from me. My point is that the two formats can co-exist and that having one at the expense of the other does NOT mean that these companies make more money, but less.

An analogy would be with say McDonalds hamburgers. If they only made one hamburger and I didn't like it then they lose any sales to me. If they made a second type hamburger which I like, then they would get my sales even if it meant that the second type hamburger only made up 5% of their sales. As I said, it is a failure to market correctly, not a failure of the desirability or worthiness of the format.

Due to the fact that businesses have to appease shareholders, it seems that we are destined to be governed by mediocrity at all levels. Make the masses happy and forget the rest as it is the masses money that make up the bulk of the profits. This is why we need to support smaller companies as the more big business rules the world, the more likely it is that we will be forced into accepting mediocrity.

I will have a look at your SACD site and see what there is on offer. As you say, it would be very beneficial to support businesses like yours to show that SACD is a format worthy of success.

Thank you again for your input.

Post by The Seventh Taylor September 13, 2007 (25 of 100)
Lance B said:

It is surprising to think that Sony has abandoned SACD seeing as they co-devloped it along with Philips and also especially as they were both the co-developers of the CD format to start with!

I think it's not fair to say Sony has abandoned SACD. Sony, like Philips, is a big company consisting of various different divisions. Perhaps it's ironic that the term "division" suggests these parts of the company are, well, divided. What we're seeing is Sony Music has put the format on the back burner and even their Home AV division appears not to be pulling so hard at this moment. At the same time however Sony Computer Entertainment, the 'PlayStation division' has wholeheartedly supported the format by incorporating it into PS3 and releasing a flow of firmware upgrades to enhance sound quality yet further.

I'm confident that once PS3's installed base takes off, the music labels will realize the opportunity and proceed to release lots of SACDs in the years to come.

Post by FunkyMonkey September 13, 2007 (26 of 100)
The Seventh Taylor said:

I think it's not fair to say Sony has abandoned SACD. Sony, like Philips, is a big company consisting of various different divisions. Perhaps it's ironic that the term "division" suggests these parts of the company are, well, divided. What we're seeing is Sony Music has put the format on the back burner and even their Home AV division appears not to be pulling so hard at this moment. At the same time however Sony Computer Entertainment, the 'PlayStation division' has wholeheartedly supported the format by incorporating it into PS3 and releasing a flow of firmware upgrades to enhance sound quality yet further.

I'm confident that once PS3's installed base takes off, the music labels will realize the opportunity and proceed to release lots of SACDs in the years to come.

I'm an optimistic sould so I'm hoping your prediction will come true. The SACD-hybrid product is a good one and relatively cheap. I don't think people prefer downloads, just that people are able to get FREE downloads. I'd rather pay a few bucks for a top-quality tangible product. Problem is, people settle for the music equivalent of McDonalds. Fools.

Post by Lance B September 13, 2007 (27 of 100)
FunkyMonkey said:

I'm an optimistic sould so I'm hoping your prediction will come true. The SACD-hybrid product is a good one and relatively cheap. I don't think people prefer downloads, just that people are able to get FREE downloads. I'd rather pay a few bucks for a top-quality tangible product. Problem is, people settle for cheap for teh music equivalent of McDonalds. Fools.

Ain't that the truth. As I said in my post, we are becoming a world of people used to mediocrity.

Post by soundboy September 13, 2007 (28 of 100)
Lance B said:

Ain't that the truth. As I said in my post, we are becoming a world of people used to mediocrity.

And the sad part of it is that some are actually proud of that. Just check out some of the responses to the SACD article at HuffingtonPost.com (there's a thread here on "Whatever happened to the Super Audio CD?").

Post by dobyblue September 13, 2007 (29 of 100)
Hopefully once Blu-ray has handily won the format war Sony will turn its attention back again to SACD.
With almost 5 million SACD players just sold in the last year in the PS3, it is the perfect opportunity for SonyBMG to release deluxe editions of the entire back catalogues of Dave Matthews Band, Pearl Jam, Bruce Springsten, Franz Ferdinand, System of a Down, etc., etc.
Release them as deluxe editions like the Genesis/Depeche Mode where it's a CD/DVD/SACD combo and put a sticker like the Blu-ray ones saying "SACD layer plays on all Playstation 3 and SACD players"

No doubt they could still have a successful format on their hands. I would love to pick up Under the Table and Dreaming, Crash and Before These Crowded Streets from DMB and 10, Versus and No Code from Pearl Jam on SACD.

Post by FunkyMonkey September 13, 2007 (30 of 100)
dobyblue said:

Hopefully once Blu-ray has handily won the format war Sony will turn its attention back again to SACD.
With almost 5 million SACD players just sold in the last year in the PS3, it is the perfect opportunity for SonyBMG to release deluxe editions of the entire back catalogues of Dave Matthews Band, Pearl Jam, Bruce Springsten, Franz Ferdinand, System of a Down, etc., etc.
Release them as deluxe editions like the Genesis/Depeche Mode where it's a CD/DVD/SACD combo and put a sticker like the Blu-ray ones saying "SACD layer plays on all Playstation 3 and SACD players"

No doubt they could still have a successful format on their hands. I would love to pick up Under the Table and Dreaming, Crash and Before These Crowded Streets from DMB and 10, Versus and No Code from Pearl Jam on SACD.

Sounds like you should get a job in Sony Marketing! You'd do a sounder (no pun intended) than they are doing!

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