Thread: Cables

Posts: 17
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Post by deckerm October 26, 2007 (1 of 17)
Hi all. I recently moved all my gear into a media credenza resulting in my Denon 2900 no longer being able to reach my receiver using my Audioquest Sidewinder cables. Since I am most likely going the PS3 route as a SACD player via HDMI, I am reluctant to buy new analog cables for the new length needed to connect (~180 for the same cables). I have seen for sale what appears to be a pair of component video cables for sale as having the appropriate bandwidth necessary for SACD, and since I have no shortage of those types of cables laying around, I thought I would try it. Before trying that, I wanted to get ya'lls thoughts on those types of cables for use with SACD.

THanks for making this an outstanding forum group.

Post by raffells October 26, 2007 (2 of 17)
deckerm said:

Hi all. I recently moved all my gear into a media credenza resulting in my Denon 2900 no longer being able to reach my receiver using my Audioquest Sidewinder cables. Since I am most likely going the PS3 route as a SACD player via HDMI, I am reluctant to buy new analog cables for the new length needed to connect (~180 for the same cables). I have seen for sale what appears to be a pair of component video cables for sale as having the appropriate bandwidth necessary for SACD, and since I have no shortage of those types of cables laying around, I thought I would try it. Before trying that, I wanted to get ya'lls thoughts on those types of cables for use with SACD.

THanks for making this an outstanding forum group.

Interesing comment re bandwith of cables,,Its also known as hype..
The quality of sound is usually restricted to the weakest part of the system,assuming its well balanced.
I have been playing around seriously for 45 years with cable designs and they only really benefit better than average systems as long as you are not using ultra thin jobbies from a market.The longer timewise you use cables , the more they run in.The dielectic is probably most important..ie Teflon and the thickness of metal next..All banefits can be lost if you dont match plugs and sockets to the same level.Gold plated to gold plated.Mismatching causes diodic effect.
Im not sure how good an sacd player/PS3 is but its nowhere neal the quality of the Denon..
As most speakers were designed for CD (limited bandwidth a reality here) Its the tweeters / speakers that will make a huge difference..

Post by Beagle October 26, 2007 (3 of 17)
raffells said: ...Gold plated to gold plated.Mismatching causes diodic effect.
Ohmygawd! My goldplate is touching copper!* Fortunately gold is a noble metal and won't stoop to too much exchange of body fluids.

All joking aside, cable is the only hype which hypsters can sell "by the foot" (meter, whatever): ideal for redistributing wealth. I have some moderately good 'connects' for unit-to-unit, and maybe I can hear a difference between crappy and moderate there.

For the long haul from amp to speakers I have opted for lots of mid-price copper rather than a few precious lengths of ultra-hype. And one of these days I'm going to try an experiment: I salvaged some antique lightning-ground copper from an old barn; slip it into some plastic tubing for insulation and see what sort of signal it can transmit across the living-room. As near as I can acertain from reading electonics texts, the signal would see all that copper like an autobahn for electrons.

It's an interesting topic, but hang on to your visa card....

*speaker cable

Post by Myrantz October 26, 2007 (4 of 17)
Beagle said:

Ohmygawd! My goldplate is touching copper!* Fortunately gold is a nobel metal and won't stoop to too much exchange of body fluids.

All joking aside, cable is the only hype which hypsters can sell "by the foot" (meter, whatever): ideal for redistributing wealth. I have some moderately good 'connects' for unit-to-unit, and maybe I can hear a difference between crappy and moderate there.

For the long haul from amp to speakers I have opted for lots of mid-price copper rather than a few precious lengths of ultra-hype. And one of these days I'm going to try an experiment: I salvaged some antique lightning-ground copper from an old barn; slip it into some plastic tubing for insulation and see what sort of signal it can transmit across the living-room. As near as I can acertain from reading electonics texts, the signal would see all that copper like an autobahn for electrons.

It's an interesting topic, but hang on to your visa card....

*speaker cable

Beagle - there are many who'll agree with you. Unfortuntely, they are deaf also.

Post by Beagle October 26, 2007 (5 of 17)
My rantz said: there are many who'll agree with you. Unfortuntely, they are deaf also.
Agree with exactly what? Surely not the use of antique lightning wire.
Do only the deaf hear a difference between cheap and more expensive interconnects?
Or do only the deaf regard the relative volume of conductor as proportional to conductance?
R = L*rho/A
Z = 1/R
where R = resistance, Z = conductance, L = Length m, A = cross-sectional area m2 and rho = specific electrical resistance of material

Please be specific -- and speak up, I'm a bit deaf....

Post by jlaurson October 26, 2007 (6 of 17)
Myrantz said:

Beagle - there are many who'll agree with you. Unfortuntely, they are deaf also.

With all due respect... the idea of cables... well, never mind. "There's nothing either good nor bad, but imagining makes it so.

(To me, it is a hoax)."

I hope you appreciate the sense of classicism that I bring to my mockery. :-)

best,

jfl

Post by Windsurfer October 26, 2007 (7 of 17)
jlaurson said:

With all due respect... the idea of cables... well, never mind. "There's nothing either good nor bad, but imagining makes it so.

(To me, it is a hoax)."

I hope you appreciate the sense of classicism that I bring to my mockery. :-)

best,

jfl

Some will, some won't

I do and I agree with you (mostly). I did persuade myself 20 years ago that some cables (not so very expensive) sounded better than what came with my equipment. One thing is certain, the difference between cable a and cable b is altogether swamped by the difference between CD and SACD. Yet I've heard of folks who will spend a fortune on cables but not a penny to upgrade to stereo sacd much less multi-channel sacd. To me this is tragic.

Post by fafnir October 26, 2007 (8 of 17)
Myrantz said:

Beagle - there are many who'll agree with you. Unfortuntely, they are deaf also.

About 20-25 years ago, Julian Hirsh, in charge of audio equipment testing in an audio/hi-fi magazine, conducted comparative tests of ordinary loudspeaker cables vs high priced "audiophile cables." The tests included calculations, measurements, and blind listening tests. To the surprise of some, the tests revealed that the only detectable difference in loudspeaker cables was due to the difference in wire gauge. That is, 100 feet of 16 AWG could sound different (and better) than 100 feet of 22 AWG, depending, to a degree, on the impedance of the loudspeakers being driven. Nothing else - not the insulation or price mattered in the slightest.

Since the calculations and measurements could not be refuted, the only recourse left to the defenders of the high-priced cables was that the blind test listeners were obviously deaf. The echoes of their howls of outrage continue to the present day.

Watch you wallet and caveat emptor.

Post by Beagle October 26, 2007 (9 of 17)
jlaurson said: I hope you appreciate the sense of classicism that I bring to my mockery
Hamlet of course -- but first I thought of William Blake's "does a firm perswasion that a thing is so, make it so?" Yes, a bit of classsicism does raise the tone here a bit. How about Walter Russel's "We are all electric creatures floating in the electric sea of this electric universe."?

Post by Julien October 26, 2007 (10 of 17)
fafnir said:

Since the calculations and measurements could not be refuted, the only recourse left to the defenders of the high-priced cables was that the blind test listeners were obviously deaf. The echoes of their howls of outrage continue to the present day.

Watch you wallet and caveat emptor.

We've had those discussions before. I strongly believe that as well as machines detect things that we through our senses are not aware of, there are a lot more things we hear that machines do not detect. And I think it would be irresponsible to assume that that part is all psychological. I will agree though on saying that anything we hear, any impression we have always involves a psychological influence. Don't forget that machines are built by us humans who are desperately trying to know more about ourselves. How much do we know? 10%? I even doubt.
Obviously in 50 years two cables that used to measure the same will not measure the same anymore, because we will measure from many more aspects.

I do personally spend a great deal on cables, because I hear an obvious difference of course. I'm used to clean sound and very often I can tell without looking if a system has good power distribution and cables. Most of the time it is tricky though, because so many things influence, especially the room.

Always trust your ears, but there are conditions. The difference between cables is more obvious with a little time. I know audiophiles whom I often do blind tests with who will judge cables after 5 minutes of listening. I always laugh at them and play the skeptical guy. I personally believe that for just 5 minutes the psychological influence can be huge, as well as fatigue etc. So I never believe in most blind tests.

Trust your ears always, and be sure to have enough time so that at all different times of the day and with a different state of mind you still hear the same difference. Matching the components and cables is the most important, more than the price. Matching everything to your room.

Those Acapella horns my friend has (100.000 euros...) will reflect any little difference in the system. They sound a lot better at night when fewer people in the building are using electricity. They are so big that there used to be an important standing wave problem in his room. I just couldn't put any organ music, many frequencies would go mad. One day he told me he had tried many cables, and with his new cables the problem was solved. I said that's room physics it shouldn't depend on the cables! And curiously, not only do the new cables bring out a lot more detail from the music, but also the standing wave problem is indeed partly solved. Partly only, but still it's impressive.
Those speakers are so transparent that they reveal imperfections in the system immediatly. I even believe in this product now (I used to laugh at it):
http://www.nordost.com/Accessories/eco3.htm
Huge difference on his speakers. Not on mine.

And for the story: the second owner of Acapella horns in the whole Beijing has a cheaper model (ACAPELLA VIOLON MK III), and much cheaper electronics (still very expensive!). Last week after a day of multi-channel demos with Jared Sacks from Channel Classics, we went to that person's house and listened to music. Jared put the last movement of the recent Mahler 2 by Budapest/Fischer. 35 minutes of magic. Jared was crying at the end, and couldn't say a word. He later told me how he couldn't believe the emotion coming out of those speakers. He couldn't believe that the strong DSD and multi-channel believer he was had been moved to that point by a stereo system, with a redbook CD.

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