Thread: 1st Post - Oppo DV980H SACD DSD to which DSD enabled A/V Receiver?

Posts: 94
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Post by tream September 12, 2008 (11 of 94)
DireWolf said:

Hello Everyone,

I'm new at this so I apologize for any confusion on my part.

I chose the Oppo 980 over the Oppo 983 because the Oppo 980 uses DSD for SACD and the 983 does not. A friend told me that since I had a large number of DSD SACD I should go with the 980 and use the savings to apply towards a quality A/V Receiver that accepts DSD to DSD for optimal playback. I took his word at this. However, neither of us know of any A/V Receivers that do this - since we lack the prerequisite technical knowledge of what is available.

By sounding "best" together I was trying to convey that I wanted the benefit of your forum expertise in guiding me towards a winning combo sonically. I did not want to rush out and buy just anything.

Sonystyle lists three ES receivers that do dsd to dsd. The least expensive one is $1500.00 and seems to have a great many other features. I made it half way through the Yamaha offerings and could not find a candidate that explicitly stated DSD to DSD. Likewise, the Marantz website is also somewhat vague. The $1400 Marantz SR7002 claims to do DSD decoding but I'm not sure if it is direct.

Onkyo SR876 seems to be the only Onkyo that does DSD processing in Direct Mode.
However, it weighs 50LBS. and goes for around $1,600 on sale.

I will finish up going through the Yamaha website tonight.

What about Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, or Panasonic?

I appreciate the comments made and suggestions given so far. If anyone knows for a certainty which make and model meet my criteria and sound equally well with movies and music - please let me know.

Thanks and I really mean it,

DireWolf

What counts is whether your receiver has "analog" inputs or not. Are you listening in multichannel? Then the receiver should have the requisite analog inputs (usuually 6) to accept the output from the SACD player. Usually the on line material will show a picture of the back of the unit and you can tell. If you are listening in stereo, the unit should accept the DSD stream via the normal music inputs. I have (used to have actually) a Denon 4802 that had all of the analog inputs, for example. Since my ex now has this system, I am looking for a new multichannel system myself, and will be researding the current Denon line to see if they continue to support the analog bypass capability. The 48xx series is too big for you, but you might look at some of the smaller units. I greatly preferred the sound of the Denon to the sound of a Yamaha that had to be placed into my system for a time - much more liquid and open.

You don't want to use video inputs if your receiver does have video processing capability because then you are in fact into the PCM processing world.

Post by tream September 12, 2008 (12 of 94)
I just looked at the current Denon line on their website - they indicate they continue to support "pure direct" - this is what you are looking for, which bypasses all of the processing for video. Good luck.

Post by Paul Clark September 13, 2008 (13 of 94)
tream said:

You don't want to use video inputs if your receiver does have video processing capability because then you are in fact into the PCM processing world.

This is an excellent thread.

FWIW: The Yamaha RX-V661 to which I refered to earlier uses HDMI 1.2a as DSD input. The RX-V661 has two button switches on the front panel. One switch toggles between "Straight" (no processing) and "Effects". A second switch "Pure Direct" toggles the internal video circuitry on/off for listening to audio only sources.

I notice a slight difference in "Pure Direct" mode. I may even say a slight cleaner sound for lack of a better description.

I'm not claiming it is DSD-DSD, just FYI.

Post by DireWolf September 13, 2008 (14 of 94)
Hello,

A question I need clarified - Isn't the purpose of HDMI to transfer the DSD SACD, hybrid SACD, all audio and all video to another HDMI enabled receiver? This is what I am trying to accomplish and eliminate the need for analog cables. Do I have the wrong notion of how things are supposed to work optimally?

DireWolf

Thanks for all the previous replies by the way.

Post by carledwards September 13, 2008 (15 of 94)
Windsurfer said:

Again it will likely NOT matter if the player sends a DSD stream or a PCM stream to a receiver or preamp with converters that change it to PCM as part of or before the A to D conversion.

Do you know what the Yamaha does in that regard?

I don't know definitively. The receiver does show DSD when in that mode and if you go look at signal info while it's playing, it shows DSD rather than PCM. In PCM mode, everything indicates PCM, of course. The manual isn't much help, either.

And I didn't mean to imply there's no difference in the sound whatsoever. There IS a subtle difference with the PCM mode sounding a bit brighter to my ears. For lack of a better word, DSD sounds a pinch "warmer." But the differences are by no means huge.

And the 1800 also has "pure direct" mode where things sound their best.

Post by Althus September 13, 2008 (16 of 94)
DireWolf said:

Hello,

A question I need clarified - Isn't the purpose of HDMI to transfer the DSD SACD, hybrid SACD, all audio and all video to another HDMI enabled receiver? This is what I am trying to accomplish and eliminate the need for analog cables. Do I have the wrong notion of how things are supposed to work optimally?

DireWolf

Thanks for all the previous replies by the way.

The 980H does transfer DSD over HDMI and the 663 does accept DSD over HDMI. The 663 does internally decode the DSD stream to PCM though. I have this set-up and it sounds great.

Post by Paul Clark September 14, 2008 (17 of 94)
Althus said:
The 663 does internally decode the DSD stream to PCM though.

Please clarify for us and help this rookie.

Assuming your Yamaha 663 is NOT set for any "Effects" and is also in "Pure Direct" mode, how did you determine that the DSD stream goes through PCM?
Why does the front panel of my 661 show "DSD" instead of "PCM" when set as stated above?

If your statement is indeed fact it seems to me that it would defeat the entire purpose of DSD, no?

EDIT: A definitive post by someone researching the 663 Service Manual,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14321540#post14321540

Post by Althus September 14, 2008 (18 of 94)
Paul Clark said:

Please clarify for us and help this rookie.

Assuming your Yamaha 663 is NOT set for any "Effects" and is also in "Pure Direct" mode, how did you determine that the DSD stream goes through PCM?
Why does the front panel of my 661 show "DSD" instead of "PCM" when set as stated above?

If your statement is indeed fact it seems to me that it would defeat the entire purpose of DSD, no?

EDIT: A definitive post by someone researching the 663 Service Manual,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14321540#post14321540

You got there first. That is where I got it from and where I would have pointed you to. :)

This is my first DSD setup and I'm kind of disappointed by that but as I apparently have never heard pure DSD I can't be that upset can I? It sounds pretty damn good as long as I don't know what I'm missing. ;)

Post by FunkyMonkey September 15, 2008 (19 of 94)
A while back it was discussed whether the Onkyo 805 was DSD->analgoue, or DSD->PCM->analogue.

Cannot find an answer on AVSFORUM website, or anywhere else, and it was not resolved here.

So if anyone is the wiser, please let us know!

Post by dobyblue September 17, 2008 (20 of 94)
DireWolf said:

Hello Everyone,

I'm new at this so I apologize for any confusion on my part.

I chose the Oppo 980 over the Oppo 983 because the Oppo 980 uses DSD for SACD and the 983 does not. A friend told me that since I had a large number of DSD SACD I should go with the 980 and use the savings to apply towards a quality A/V Receiver that accepts DSD to DSD for optimal playback. I took his word at this. However, neither of us know of any A/V Receivers that do this - since we lack the prerequisite technical knowledge of what is available.

By sounding "best" together I was trying to convey that I wanted the benefit of your forum expertise in guiding me towards a winning combo sonically. I did not want to rush out and buy just anything.

Sonystyle lists three ES receivers that do dsd to dsd. The least expensive one is $1500.00 and seems to have a great many other features. I made it half way through the Yamaha offerings and could not find a candidate that explicitly stated DSD to DSD. Likewise, the Marantz website is also somewhat vague. The $1400 Marantz SR7002 claims to do DSD decoding but I'm not sure if it is direct.

Onkyo SR876 seems to be the only Onkyo that does DSD processing in Direct Mode.
However, it weighs 50LBS. and goes for around $1,600 on sale.

I will finish up going through the Yamaha website tonight.

What about Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, or Panasonic?

I appreciate the comments made and suggestions given so far. If anyone knows for a certainty which make and model meet my criteria and sound equally well with movies and music - please let me know.

Thanks and I really mean it,

DireWolf

None of the Pioneer receivers do DSD>Analog.

The Onkyo TX-SR805, TX-SR875 and TX-NR905 all do DSD>Analog directly if you have DSD Direct set. They use PCM1796 Burr Brown 24/192 DAC's with DSD interface.

The Denon 4308CI and 5308CI (and the pre-pro above it) both do DSD>Analog conversion in PURE DIRECT or SOURCE DIRECT mode; 4308CI uses PCM1791A and 5308CI uses PCM1796.

The new Onkyo receivers do NOT do DSD>Analog according to the manuals. The NR-906 uses the same PCM1796 DAC's, the TX-SR806 uses Cirrus Logic DAC's. They will all accept a DSD stream, but will convert to PCM regardless of settings. Onkyo have not said otherwise. They even note in the manual "If you have an SACD player capable of outputting DSD and PCM, you may find better reproduction selecting PCM"

The 805, 875 and 905 receivers do not note this - they note that "In listening modes other than DSD DIRECT and PURE AUDIO, DSD sources are converted and handled as PCM"

It's a shame because the xx5 series have flaws that the xx6 series have fixed, such as no 24/192 multi-channel processing for TrueHD or dts-ma. dts-ma 24/192 sources are processed as 24/96 and 24/192 multi-channel TrueHD sources are processed as 2-channel only. Win some, lose some.

The Yamaha RX-V1800, RX-V1900, RX-V3900 and RX-V3800 use PCM1791A DAC's and will do DSD>Analog. The RX-Z11 will also do DSD>Analog and uses the PCM1792 DAC capable of 132dB SNR.

Panasonic do not support DSD at all.

The Marantz 7002 and 8002 receivers support DSD>Analog conversion in PURE DIRECT mode and SOURCE DIRECT mode, just like the Denon receivers.

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