Thread: Wheatus Need Your Help SACD/DSD People

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Post by wheatus January 5, 2009 (1 of 15)
Hello SA-CD.Neters....My name is brendan b brown. I am the singer, songwriter, producer and engineer for my band wheatus.

In May 2008 I purchased an 8 track Sonoma DSD system from Gus Skinas at the Super Audio Center for the purpose of recording our 4th record in the DSD format. It is proving to be the best decision I have ever made. I actually enjoy listening to music on this system!

I am here to join your community and to ask if you know of any innovative means of DSD file delivery and playback that exist currently.

I am aware of the SONY Vaio feature and the PS3 (which I think is only a SACD player, please correct me if I am wrong) and the Korg line including the MR1.

Obviously, a DSD iPod/iPhone accompanied by an all out iTunes DSD Full res rollout would be the dream come true that would save the music industry....but, short of that fantasy, are there any means, that any of you are currently aware of, that we can utilize to deliver our DSD masters to people?...I'm asking for plugins, software, dongles, anything and everything, in development, current or proposed that can or will playback DSD.

I know that rock and pop are currently NOT SACD or DSD mainstays. I do believe however that the 1 bit format will be the salvation of music in the long term. If pop music is to survive at all we producers must put real listening at the top of our list of criteria for successful work. We must upgrade or we will perish.

Thanks for the site and the forum.

brendan b brown
wheatus.com

Post by FullRangeMan January 5, 2009 (2 of 15)
wheatus said:

Hello SA-CD.Neters....My name is brendan b brown. I am the singer, songwriter, producer and engineer for my band wheatus.

Congratulations for your band intend recording in DSD system.
Maybe the users BISSIE ( Mr.Robert Von Bahr of BIS Records) or CHANNEL ( Mr.Jared Sacks of CHANNEL CLASSICS ) of this site can help you, of course they are busy people.
There is a NEWS post on this Site about a SONY web data transfer software ( Super Audio CD Software Production Moves Into Network Age ).
Maybe who sell the equip to you should give you a more friendly support (ask for it). There is others guys working with pro sound on this site, but I do not know who they are.
Good Luck and Success in 2009.

Post by wheatus January 5, 2009 (3 of 15)
FullRangeMan said:

Congratulations for your band intend recording in DSD system.
Maybe the users BISSIE ( Mr.Robert Von Bahr of BIS Records) or CHANNEL ( Mr.Jared Sacks of CHANNEL CLASSICS ) of this site can help you.
There is a NEWS post on this Site about a SONY web data transfer software ( Super Audio CD Software Production Moves Into Network Age ).
Maybe who sell the equip to you should give you a more friendly support (ask for it).
Good Luck and Success in 2009.

Thank you FullRangeMan.....Gus Skinas has been extremely helpful....best customer service I've ever had in fact....

I'm reaching out here to see if anyone is developing or discovering anything new on this....Thanks for the help!

Much DSD,
brendan b brown
wheatus.com

Post by dax44 January 9, 2009 (4 of 15)
wheatus said:

Thank you FullRangeMan.....Gus Skinas has been extremely helpful....best customer service I've ever had in fact....

I'm reaching out here to see if anyone is developing or discovering anything new on this....Thanks for the help!

Much DSD,
brendan b brown
wheatus.com

Brendan

I only recently discovered DSD too and just bought an MR1 and 1000 and some new sacds for reference

my aim is archiving my (big) vinyl collection - but there is the same problem - how to play back 1-bit more conveniently without being forced into creating 2496 WAV/FLAC/ALAC versions of everything.

so anyway this is all i know so far:

all PS3s play DSD discs - but do not all play SACD (not the latest ones) - makes no sense I know
there are other semi-pro DSD players apart from the Korgs - Sharp Auvi DR80 and Tascam DV-RA1000
there are no 'ipod' type players supporting 1-bit - i am not sure if there are even any 24-bit PCM ones? (i use a zoom H4 but thats not consumer really)
some sony vaio laptops now have built in 24-bit sound
DSD Discs
http://www.ps3sacd.com/dsddiscguide.html
http://www.ps3sacd.com/downloads/DSDDiscFormatSpecs.pdf
DSD downloads and some sound card / DAC info
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1019847
Creating SA-CDs (not)
/showthread/26627/26668
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=create+dsd+disc&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

DSD/SACD sounds great - but it is very early (if ever) days - i am not holding my breath
OR selling my vinyl ..

i think NIN were the first to offer free high-res downloads (24/96) - maybe you can be the first ever DSD disc download album? if more people do it then some players will appear surely ..

anyway good luck.

Post by The Seventh Taylor January 9, 2009 (5 of 15)
dax44 said:

all PS3s play DSD discs - but do not all play SACD (not the latest ones) - makes no sense I know

It makes some sense. The price premium is in the hardware required for handling the copy protection (which SACD has but DSD Disc hasn't) -- not in the handling of DSD, which is all done in software.

> there are no 'ipod' type players supporting 1-bit

Except the Korg MR1, of course.

Brendan, you may want to look at the 2L site which offers high-resolution downloads in various formats (including DSD).

Post by dax44 January 10, 2009 (6 of 15)
The Seventh Taylor said:

It makes some sense. The price premium is in the hardware required for handling the copy protection (which SACD has but DSD Disc hasn't) -- not in the handling of DSD, which is all done in software.

> there are no 'ipod' type players supporting 1-bit

Except the Korg MR1, of course.

Brendan, you may want to look at the 2L site which offers high-resolution downloads in various formats (including DSD).

I think Brendan was talking about mass market players with regards to making his DSDs available to the wider (non-audiophile / non-musician) public.

There is clearly some chicken-egg-ness here: there are not even 24-bit 'ipods' but then again there is no 24-bit music to put on them anyway even if there were.

If the DSDs are made available , even just for enthusiats , then in time a wider market might follow

And since Brendan seems to be on a 'save music' mission , then lets hope he pushes the envelope in that direction.

Regards.

Post by The Seventh Taylor January 10, 2009 (7 of 15)
dax44 said:

I think Brendan was talking about mass market players with regards to making his DSDs available to the wider (non-audiophile / non-musician) public.

If the DSDs are made available , even just for enthusiasts , then in time a wider market might follow

DSD for the masses? Are you kidding? For the masses, 128kbps MP3 is fine. Discerning listeners stick to FLAC which is, of course, just CD quality. Audio of DSD quality is really for a niche audience.

Post by raveer January 10, 2009 (8 of 15)
Hello Brendan,

Impressive move, I am speechless. I really like your music and fact that 4th album is beeing recorded in DSD is beyond words. As for DSD to the mases, the idea is really great, but it's execution is sadly doomed. There is a small problem with available equipment and a huge problem with peoples minds and their general apathy towards quality of materail fed into their ears. Well I like it nonetheless and would buy it in a breeze. :)

Anyhow as stated before any PS3 plays DSD discs, which is essentially a DVD DATA disc with DSD files in DSF format (Direct Stream File; extension is .dsf) which is a 1-bit 2 channel only audio file format developed and used by Sony for their VAIO personal and laptop computers equiped with Sound Reality Sigma-Delta DAC. The Sound Reality is slowly beeing phased out from smaller laptops and replaced with a combination of HD Audio capable AC97 generic device and their DSD to PCM plugin for Windows Media Player 10/11, which can be downloaded free of charge from Sony.

You are probably masterig in DFF format (DSDIFF) which is a 1-bit profesional audio file format used for SA-CD production. The name stands for Direct Stream Digital Interchange File Format (file extension .dff). And this is not playable on PS3, but it can be played back with Windows Media Player Plugin or Vaios equiped with Sound Reality or on Korg MR1. With Sharp or Tascam I have no experience, until today I did not even know they existed. :)

Mr. Morten Lindberg from 2L was kind enough to release sample DSD files, but they are in DFF, so they can not be player back with PS3. :(

If you insist on DSD delivery, make sure it is stereo DSF format. That way it can be played back on 20 million PS3s in addition to all the Vaios and all the other computers equipped with HD capable sound card and DSD2PCM plugin.

I sincerely wish you all the best and look forward to it. :)
Mitja

Post by wheatus January 10, 2009 (9 of 15)
raveer said:

Hello Brendan,

Impressive move, I am speechless. I really like your music and fact that 4th album is beeing recorded in DSD is beyond words. As for DSD to the mases, the idea is really great, but it's execution is sadly doomed. There is a small problem with available equipment and a huge problem with peoples minds and their general apathy towards quality of materail fed into their ears. Well I like it nonetheless and would buy it in a breeze. :)

Anyhow as stated before any PS3 plays DSD discs, which is essentially a DVD DATA disc with DSD files in DSF format (Direct Stream File; extension is .dsf) which is a 1-bit 2 channel only audio file format developed and used by Sony for their VAIO personal and laptop computers equiped with Sound Reality Sigma-Delta DAC. The Sound Reality is slowly beeing phased out from smaller laptops and replaced with a combination of HD Audio capable AC97 generic device and their DSD to PCM plugin for Windows Media Player 10/11, which can be downloaded free of charge from Sony.

You are probably masterig in DFF format (DSDIFF) which is a 1-bit profesional audio file format used for SA-CD production. The name stands for Direct Stream Digital Interchange File Format (file extension .dff). And this is not playable on PS3, but it can be played back with Windows Media Player Plugin or Vaios equiped with Sound Reality or on Korg MR1. With Sharp or Tascam I have no experience, until today I did not even know they existed. :)

Mr. Morten Lindberg from 2L was kind enough to release sample DSD files, but they are in DFF, so they can not be player back with PS3. :(

If you insist on DSD delivery, make sure it is stereo DSF format. That way it can be played back on 20 million PS3s in addition to all the Vaios and all the other computers equipped with HD capable sound card and DSD2PCM plugin.

I sincerely wish you all the best and look forward to it. :)
Mitja

Thank you all very much for the advice...I will be sure to follow it closely and I'll be checking back with you frequently along the way.

In March wheatus will release Pop, Songs and Death Volume 1: The Lightning EP. It will be the 1st record we can offer in DSD and I intend to find every avenue for which to deliver the full res DSD file masters to people, so your input on this matter is critical to our release plan.

I strongly disagree with the notion that MP3, AAC, or even Redbook AIFF are "good enough". Sales of music across the board are down about 70% since the proliferation of these digital formats, so no, obviously, they are not "good enough" to buy. Blame internet piracy if you will...you are wrong. Two of the top selling albums of 2008 were available for free: Radiohead, In Rainbows and NIN, Ghosts. There are more examples of this phenomenon. Across the board it is obvious now, giveaways boost sales.

Also, when did "good enough" become a standard for audio production? Was it just after Neumann pioneered DMM?...or perhaps "good enough" was decided upon by discerning audiophiles who were unsatisfied with the shabby results of the MFSL 1/2 speed mastering process?

All sarcasm aside, and even if "good enough" were good enough, I'd still want my records available in DSD. I'm certain my career is riding on them exceeding the "good enough" standard. Thank you for helping me to do so...please, keep the ideas coming!

Many Thanks,
brendan b brown
wheatus.com

Post by DSD January 10, 2009 (10 of 15)
dax44 said:

...There is clearly some chicken-egg-ness here: there are not even 24-bit 'ipods' but then again there is no 24-bit music to put on them anyway even if there were...

I am waiting for a small iPod to be made for my 24 Bit 96kHz high resolution downloads. I have found some portable 24/96 recorders but I really just need the playback function.

If you haven't tried them the 24/96 downloads from HD Tracks are great especially the ones from Reference Recordings!
http://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=9624albums
But dang it I want to play them on my iPod and my iPod will not accept them, seems lossless WAV and AIFF is the highest resolution I can load! Which is better than MP3. Oh well, I want a 24/96 iPod or a portable SACD player!

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