Thread: MTT/SFS Mahler Project

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Post by tream September 22, 2005 (1 of 11)
I went to the SFS last night and heard the first of several performances of the Adagio of Mahler's 10th to be recorded. This was my first ever hearing of this live, and while the performance was good, the overall impression was one of incompleteness - the Adagio is a piece of a much larger puzzle, and I formed the belief that realization of Mahler's intentions in this symphony require a performance of the complete thing, even if this is a reconstruction. MTT doesn't share this belief, obviously. Since I don't do DVD-A, there is a high-rez catalog gap here (at least for me!)-we need a complete 10th on SACD. (We also need another DLVDE, and a complete "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" - and while I'm at it, "Das Klagende Lied".)

Next week the 5th will be recorded. I was present for the last performance of the 5th in 03, and it was brilliant. The recording of the 7th is about ot be released.

Post by Dinko September 22, 2005 (2 of 11)
tream said:

Since I don't do DVD-A, there is a high-rez catalog gap here (at least for me!)-we need a complete 10th on SACD.

You're not missing much on the DVDA side. The Sir Simon version isn't pretty - sonically that is.

As for SACD... Delos have my all-time favourite 10th on CD. It appears to have been originally recorded in DSD. Anrew Litton. Dallas Symphony Orchestra.
Why they haven't released it on SACD, I don't know.

http://www.delosmus.com/cgi/cart/item/de32/de3295.html?ID=288191127420034

Post by tream September 22, 2005 (3 of 11)
Dinko said:

You're not missing much on the DVDA side. The Sir Simon version isn't pretty - sonically that is.

As for SACD... Delos have my all-time favourite 10th on CD. It appears to have been originally recorded in DSD. Anrew Litton. Dallas Symphony Orchestra.
Why they haven't released it on SACD, I don't know.

http://www.delosmus.com/cgi/cart/item/de32/de3295.html?ID=288191127420034

Delos doesn't seem to have released a new SACD for 18-24 months. Too bad.

Interesting that Litton chose the Carpenter edition of the 10th over the more or less standard Cooke (although that comes in two flavors, so you can choose I or II).

So here is a company that has released SACD's and could become the sole owners of a space in the SACD catalog, but doesn't. As Viktor says, "Who are these people" (and I'll add, "What are they thinking?")

I think I'll email to them - although my emails to Testament, Chandos, and DG have produced no results (not even a reply from Testament).

Post by zeus September 22, 2005 (4 of 11)
tream said:

This was my first ever hearing of this live, and while the performance was good, the overall impression was one of incompleteness

I wonder whether this has anything to do with the composer absenting himself part way through :-). I've never been a fan of the reconstructed 10th. The last movement of the 9th says it all for me.

Post by Scott September 22, 2005 (5 of 11)
zeus said:

I wonder whether this has anything to do with the composer absenting himself part way through :-). I've never been a fan of the reconstructed 10th. The last movement of the 9th says it all for me.

Agreed. MTT's mentor felt the same way.

Post by prometheus September 23, 2005 (6 of 11)
zeus said:

I wonder whether this has anything to do with the composer absenting himself part way through :-). I've never been a fan of the reconstructed 10th. The last movement of the 9th says it all for me.

Well, well, well.........

First, the Tenth. Mahler completed not only the Adagio but the fully orchestrated score of 95% plus of the second movement. The residue of the Symphony--save some pages of missing segue from compositional bloc to bloc--was completed in short score; that is, leaving only the orchestration details to be worked on. Even here, the short score provides plenty of guidance such as "trumpets,soli" or "violas, doubled by bassoons." Therefore, all (!) Cooke,Goldschmidt, Matthews and Matthews--and their arguably much less skilled and idiomatic American competitors who have been championed in Dallas, Cincinnati and St. Louis-- had to do was to use GM's published oeuvre to ascertain how he would have likely resolved the transition problems, and to complete the orchestration according to GM's 'above the (short score) stave' instructions and according to the wealth of informative hints and guidance to be found among a lifetime's orchestral work. The Tenth, then, is the overwhelmingly legitimate work of GM who--while dying and heartbroken, admittedly--was on the job way beyond the Adagio and even to the bitterest end.

Second, the Ninth. I should have thought that the Mahler scholarship of Mitchell, de la Grange etc would by now have reached the cultural ends of the earth. Apparently not. The Finale of the Ninth has nothing whatever to do with fading gracefully and resignedly--if hardly stoicly--from this mortal coil. Instead, it depicts (if music does anything so graphic or so coarse)GM's mindset of abject despair while his beloved Almschi was bouncing on the bed-springs of Walter Gropius et al. The sole interpreter whom I know to take much account of this is the peerless Chailly who underlines the quotes from the slow movements of Symphonies 5 & 6--epitomes of his declared devotion. Barbirolli, Tennstedt, Karajan and the like could not have been aware of the dreadful biographical details and missed the cross-references. What's your excuse?

If I may allude to--or even compete with-- someone whom I know to have been appallingly rude and impertinent, why don't you "stick" to software design and web-site management? After all, you seem to do those "quite" well.......

To sacd.net, envoi.

Post by Castor September 23, 2005 (7 of 11)
prometheus said:

Well, well, well.........

First, the Tenth. Mahler completed not only the Adagio but the fully orchestrated score of 95% plus of the second movement. The residue of the Symphony--save some pages of missing segue from compositional bloc to bloc--was completed in short score; that is, leaving only the orchestration details to be worked on. Even here, the short score provides plenty of guidance such as "trumpets,soli" or "violas, doubled by bassoons." Therefore, all (!) Cooke,Goldschmidt, Matthews and Matthews--and their arguably much less skilled and idiomatic American competitors who have been championed in Dallas, Cincinnati and St. Louis-- had to do was to use GM's published oeuvre to ascertain how he would have likely resolved the transition problems, and to complete the orchestration according to GM's 'above the (short score) stave' instructions and according to the wealth of informative hints and guidance to be found among a lifetime's orchestral work. The Tenth, then, is the overwhelmingly legitimate work of GM who--while dying and heartbroken, admittedly--was on the job way beyond the Adagio and even to the bitterest end.

Second, the Ninth. I should have thought that the Mahler scholarship of Mitchell, de la Grange etc would by now have reached the cultural ends of the earth. Apparently not. The Finale of the Ninth has nothing whatever to do with fading gracefully and resignedly--if hardly stoicly--from this mortal coil. Instead, it depicts (if music does anything so graphic or so coarse)GM's mindset of abject despair while his beloved Almschi was bouncing on the bed-springs of Walter Gropius et al. The sole interpreter whom I know to take much account of this is the peerless Chailly who underlines the quotes from the slow movements of Symphonies 5 & 6--epitomes of his declared devotion. Barbirolli, Tennstedt, Karajan and the like could not have been aware of the dreadful biographical details and missed the cross-references. What's your excuse?

If I may allude to--or even compete with-- someone whom I know to have been appallingly rude and impertinent, why don't you "stick" to software design and web-site management? After all, you seem to do those "quite" well.......

To sacd.net, envoi.

I find it hard to believe that any Mahler lover who has heard good performances of the Cooke/Matthews etc. completed 10th could want to be without it in their collection.
As you so rightly say, much of the symphony was complete at the time of Mahler's death and, while it is true that he would have probably revised the work, as he did with his other symphonies, the Cooke "Performing version", as Cooke preferred to call it, is a magnificent achievement.
I too have been disappointed by the recordings of the Carpenter, Wheeler and Mazetti versions, but do enjoy the "reconstruction" by Barshai on Brilliant Classics. Have you heard it?

I am not sure what has provoked your attack on Stephen (Zeus) in your final paragraph, but if it is a private matter then it seems un-warranted here or am I missing something?

Post by brenda September 23, 2005 (8 of 11)
prometheus said: If I may allude to--or even compete with-- someone whom I know to have been appallingly rude and impertinent, why don't you "stick" to software design and web-site management? After all, you seem to do those "quite" well.......To sacd.net, envoi.
Prometheus, your closing remarks are totally out of order, - rude and ungracious and quite undeserved. What on earth provoked them?? If you had any sense of propriety you would apologise to stephen. Please take your distemper elsewhere. B.

Post by tream September 23, 2005 (9 of 11)
prometheus said:

Well, well, well.........

First, the Tenth. Mahler completed not only the Adagio but the fully orchestrated score of 95% plus of the second movement. The residue of the Symphony--save some pages of missing segue from compositional bloc to bloc--was completed in short score; that is, leaving only the orchestration details to be worked on. Even here, the short score provides plenty of guidance such as "trumpets,soli" or "violas, doubled by bassoons." Therefore, all (!) Cooke,Goldschmidt, Matthews and Matthews--and their arguably much less skilled and idiomatic American competitors who have been championed in Dallas, Cincinnati and St. Louis-- had to do was to use GM's published oeuvre to ascertain how he would have likely resolved the transition problems, and to complete the orchestration according to GM's 'above the (short score) stave' instructions and according to the wealth of informative hints and guidance to be found among a lifetime's orchestral work. The Tenth, then, is the overwhelmingly legitimate work of GM who--while dying and heartbroken, admittedly--was on the job way beyond the Adagio and even to the bitterest end.

Second, the Ninth. I should have thought that the Mahler scholarship of Mitchell, de la Grange etc would by now have reached the cultural ends of the earth. Apparently not. The Finale of the Ninth has nothing whatever to do with fading gracefully and resignedly--if hardly stoicly--from this mortal coil. Instead, it depicts (if music does anything so graphic or so coarse)GM's mindset of abject despair while his beloved Almschi was bouncing on the bed-springs of Walter Gropius et al. The sole interpreter whom I know to take much account of this is the peerless Chailly who underlines the quotes from the slow movements of Symphonies 5 & 6--epitomes of his declared devotion. Barbirolli, Tennstedt, Karajan and the like could not have been aware of the dreadful biographical details and missed the cross-references. What's your excuse?

If I may allude to--or even compete with-- someone whom I know to have been appallingly rude and impertinent, why don't you "stick" to software design and web-site management? After all, you seem to do those "quite" well.......

To sacd.net, envoi.

"Prometheus", this kind of invective tends to rebound more of the propounder than of the recipient, and reveals you to be an educated, intelligent, yet unhappy, depressed and frustrated human being. I think most of us here appreciate the fact that this forum has been relatively free of personal shots. Yours is certainly out of place. I'd been really interested in your opinions as to why your prefer certain editions of the 10th and others fall short (although I could do without the generalization that the others are by the "less skilled and idiomatic American competitors" type of phrase, which is your opinion, but in this context nothing more.

Furthermore, if you choose to launch personal assaults, at least be clever.

Post by Peter September 23, 2005 (10 of 11)
Castor said:

....but do enjoy the "reconstruction" by Barshai on Brilliant Classics. Have you heard it?

I have Mahler 5 and 10 on Brilliant; wonderful playing, and Barshai's version of the tenth seems to me to be excellent. (I prefer it to both Rattles.)

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